Few things about Breton and the Bretons

[DieNacht]

I found the strong reaction from Discobole on the interesting post by kentel somewhat bewildering. Thus I got interested in the question of whether the Breton language was in fact forbidden in French public schools in the early 20th century. Unfortunately I have not yet been to Brittany, but I have tasted a bit of Celtic culture in Ireland and especially Galicia in Northern Spain.

Wikipedia has this article in French:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton

and it clearly states during the age of Napoleon, there was some official recognition and interest in the language, whereas it was in fact forbidden and opposed in the early 20th century:

Ainsi en 1902, le ministère Combes promulgue par décret l'interdiction de « l'usage abusif du breton. » Les écoles religieuses suivent rapidement et le breton n'est plus enseigné à partir du début du XXe siècle mais continue à être transmis de génération en génération par voie orale.

Il faut noter quelques initiatives particulières tendant à promouvoir un certain enseignement de la langue bretonne dans les Écoles chrétiennes, depuis celle du Frère Constantius au début du siècle, au pays de Léon principalement, jusqu'à celle du frère Seité, après la dernière guerre.

Au milieu du XIXe siècle, selon François Vallée, il existait des écoles privées chrétiennes qui, entre autres choses, apprenaient à lire en breton et en latin, et enseignaient quelques rudiments de français littéraire. Un certain nombre d'évêques, également au XIXe siècle, en Basse-Bretagne, Mgr Graverand en particulier, ont essayé d'organiser un enseignement du breton et de l'histoire de la Bretagne, parfois en breton, comme le montre l'histoire de Bretagne en breton rédigée par Anna Mezmeur, religieuse de la congrégation du Saint-Esprit.

La politique scolaire contre le breton date de la fin du XIXe siècle. Elle utilise alors deux méthodes :
d'une part, le breton n'est plus enseigné à l'école, car on fait fermer les écoles en breton ;
d'autre part, le français doit être la seule langue utilisée dans les écoles républicaines, y compris dans les cours de récréation. Comme les autres locuteurs des langues parlées en France et dans les possessions françaises d'Outre-Mer, les élèves bretonnants subissent des persécutions officielles au moyen notamment de pratiques humiliantes. Ainsi se répand la pratique du symbole, petit objet qui passe au cou d'élève à élève pendant la récréation à chaque fois que l'un d'entre eux parle breton, avec une punition pour le dernier élève à l'avoir.

Certains pensent que la politique française vise à imposer pour des motifs idéologiques la langue française comme langue unique de la République (« je ne veux voir qu'une seule tête, n'entendre qu'une seule langue »[réf. nécessaire]). Pour illustrer la vigueur de cette politique, ils s'appuient notamment sur une phrase qui aurait été longtemps affichée dans certaines écoles primaires : « Il est interdit de parler breton et de cracher par terre », phrase qui associe deux interdictions de nature différente, une liée à l'hygiène et une à l'emploi de la langue, censé illustrer la politique d'amalgame et de dévalorisation employée pour parvenir à éradiquer le breton en Bretagne. Or à ce jour aucune affiche de ce type n'a été mise au jour et les exemplaires étudiés se sont avérés être des montages récents. Toutefois, il convient de noter que le ministère de l'Éducation appliqua une politique de répression des langues régionales au travers de diverses directives26. Le même auteur cite, en outre, le Règlement pour les écoles primaires élémentaires de l'arrondissement de Lorient, adopté et arrêté par le Comité supérieur de l'arrondissement en 1836 et approuvé par le recteur en 1842, qui dispose : « Art. 21. Il est défendu aux élèves de parler breton, même pendant la récréation et de proférer aucune parole grossière. Aucun livre breton ne devra être admis ni toléré. » S'exprimer en breton et parler « grossièrement » font l'objet de la même prohibition27. Le 19 juillet 1925 lors de l'inauguration du pavillon de la Bretagne à l'Exposition universelle de Paris, le ministre de l'Instruction publique, Anatole de Monzie, résume sa politique : « pour l'unité linguistique de la France, la langue bretonne doit disparaître ! » (etc.)

Some of the more well-known composers expressing a certain Breton reverie or nationalism were Maurice Emmanuel (2nd symphony, Bretonne 1931), Jean Cras, Paul le Flem, Joseph Guy-Ropartz and especially Rhené-Baton (Chansons Bretonnes, orchestral pieces etc), cf.

http://www.compositeursbretons.com/www/sonaozer/fra/compositeurs.asp
and
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de_compositeurs_bretons

[kentel]

It pains me to see that somebody would leave this forum just because one person's opinion. There have been times when I have been offended, but it doesn't stop me from continuing to post. I understand both sides of the fence in this issue, but at the same time, I think both parties should try and be civil.

As far as I can remember, I was civil. The guy who just has poured loads of insults on me (fascist prick, racist, propagandist, liar, ridiculous, having stinking ideas etc.),  accuses me to insult HIM  , proves unable to hold a discussion, voluntarily misreads what I write, fantasizes about my opinions, claims to "correct" my analysis,  does not even bother to write correctly my nick,  and... leaves  !!!!!!!

Thank you to Die Nacht, for the quote from the Wikipedia (it's a pity we havn't got it in English) which shows, at least,  that I'm not a liar. Now, my turn to "correct" some of his claims :

- I wrote "many of these Breton people do feel connected with France, as the servant is connected to his lord.", "these" are "the Bretons born between 1930 and 1950" and speaking the language, does he belong to this population segment ? Probably not, hence no reason to feel "insulted". The people I am talking about are my own parents and people around me, who do believe that the breton is worth nothing because it's what they have been taught. I am not insulting anybody, it's a statement.

- "what he represents is not a minority but a marginal movement, a few hundreds people at most, who are entertaining themselves with a myth, a forged history, a forged language that their own ancestors did not spoke" ; that's counterfactual. My parents spoke breton, there are today 200 000 people speaking the language (not "a few hundreds"). If he considers the breton language as "forged", what would he says about modern Hebrew, eg, which has been revived as a spoken language after 2500 years ? (Hebrew is actually a model for all language revitalists).

- "a forged culture that mixes very common european folk elements which are not older than the 19th century" : there's a clear confusion here between "culture" and "folklore". I am not talking about people dancing for the tourists, I am talking about culture. There's a big deal of a difference.

-"a movement that his historically and deeply anchored in a far-right, reactionary, catholic fundamentalist, xenophobic tradition which is not only ridiculous but kind of stinking." : this is obviously another premedited insult. I am neither reactionary nor catholic fundamentalist nor xenophob and have no sympathy for the far right, and neither do have any of the Breton-speaking and culture-involved people who I know.

In any case, no better demonstration could show how tense are the relations between France and Brittany, and I would advise our friend Discobole (correctly written) to read books about the subject (+ one about how to build up a decent reasonning) and to come back with a real argumentation (i.e : not insults). I'll be glad then to exchange views about a matter which, obviously, is of the highest concern to him (no irony).

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

As far as I can remember, I was civil. The guy who just has poured loads of insults on me (fascist prick, racist, propagandist, liar, ridiculous, having stinking idead etc.),  accuses me to insult HIM  , proves unable to hold a discussion, voluntarily misreads what I write, fantasizes about my opinions, claims to "correct" my analysis,  does not even bother to write correctly my nick,  and... leaves  !!!!!!!

Y'know, I've spent years in Eastern and Central Europe and have dealt with some unpleasant and crazy nationalists of various countries, but this Discobole character takes the cake. Are his views typical in France?

[kentel]

Y'know, I've spent years in Eastern and Central Europe and have dealt with some unpleasant and crazy nationalists of various countries, but this Discobole character takes the cake. Are his views typical in France?

Oh yes, they are 

And the arguments are stereotyped, I hear always the same : 1- Breton is a forged language and 2- The supporters of the Breton language and culture are nationalists/fascists/nazis etc. That way Godwin's law applies a few seconds after the beginning of the debate.

To be specific :

1- There's is standard Breton as there is a standard French. On regional variety had to be chosen. For French, it was the language from the Val de Loire and Paris, for Breton, it was the language spoken in north-western Brittany. Afterwards, many neologisms were created, both in France, with a huge amount of word creations from Greek and Latin during the XVIth century, and in Brittany. If Breton is forged, then French is forged too.

2- There's two points here

a- the equation regionalist = fascist, which can be true actually but which can also be false. As far as I can state, the Breton regionalism is much weaker than the French nationalism...

b- the fact that some Breton revitalists collaborated with the Nazis. This is actually true, some of them did, but many of them did not (much more) : there were more resistants in Brittany than in any other part of France (I quote, among others, two officers - Letac and Forman, after their return form the Savannah mission in London in 1941 : "Il n'est pas vain de dire que la Bretagne est, parmi les autres régions françaises, celle où la résistance anti-allemande s'affirme avec le plus de netteté" (= "it's not vain to say that Brittany is, among the other French regions, the one where the anti-German resistance is seen most clearly"), and there are many of this kind.

Moreover, some Breton collaborated, that's true, but how much French did ? How deep has the French administration been involved into the collaboration (including deportations etc.) ?

In fact, the origins of the Breton regionalist movement (and of the language revitalization process)  is not to be sought in the dark hours of the history of France but, as for all the regionalists movements of Europe, in the raise of Romanticism. Le Gonidec, Villemarqué etc. began to work on the revitalization of Breton at the beginning of the 19th century, inspired by the ideas of Romanticism, according to which the history of Europe and of the peoples of Europe was as interesting a matter as the history of the ancient Greeks and Romans, and their myths and beliefs as interesting as the Christian ones.

That's facts. Not fantasies.

Now, what leaves me stunned each time I have such a conversation, is the incredible violence of the attacks on the behalf of the French nationalists. I havn't seen that anywhere else. Would an Englishman call a Scott or a Welsh a "fascist little prick" because he dares defend a dying and unique regional language and the culture around ?

I'm living in Central Europe right now, so I know what you're talking about....

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Thanks for the detailed response. To this point:

If Breton is forged, then French is forged too.

People forget that all languages are "forged," if by that you mean standardized. Just like when people complain about "invented countries" or "artificial nations." All countries are invented!

Now, what leaves me stunned each time I have such a conversation, is the incredible violence of the attacks on the behalf of the French nationalists. I havn't seen that anywhere else. Would an Englishman call a Scott or a Welsh a "fascist little prick" because he dares defend a dying and unique regional language and the culture around ?

I'm living in Central Europe right now, so I know what you're talking about....

That's what really surprised me. The degree of verbal violence in his response made me think of Yugoslavia in the 1990s. I didn't think it was a normal reaction among French people.

[Feijenoord]

I'm a long time reader of this board and I love to read it but for the first time I felt the urge to register after I read this post. So I want to say to kentel that I totally support him after this agressive reaction from discobole, and I thank Gurnatron to have supported kentel too, and to have driven Discobole to go away with all his insults and threats.

I'm from Netherlands originally, but I live in the US. I was a big lover of France, of its culture and language, until I married a Breton woman who has been my wife for 10 years, and I discovered that France was indeed one of the most tyrannic regimes when it comes to minorities, and in particular Bretons (but the same applies to Alsaciens, Basques and others). My wife is from a Breton family where everyone speaks Breton for centuries, despite the interdiction at school and the obligation to speak French in public (as at school, or in court for example, whereas any foreign citizen has a right to speak in his own language with the help of a translator !).
All you need to know is that this people is deprived of basic rights, and oppressed in a way which can only be compared to totalitarian regimes. This is not at all an overstatement, just let me say a few things.
When living in France, my wife has been deprived of a job in a travel agency because she had been speaking Breton with some customers (she spoke French usually but answered in Breton to those who started conversation in her language). After that she could not find any other job. Keep in mind that Bretons cannot be employed in public jobs (not only as teachers, but policemen too, postmans, etc), this is not only a cultural but an ethnic problem, the French have been colonizing Brittany for centuries and it has been worsening during the last century. As kentel said, the Bretons had a big role in French Resistance (whereas most of the French were very eager to collaborate) and after "Liberation" they were thanked by more oppressive measures by the military dictature of De Gaulle (do not forget it lasted until 1969 !), who even banned the Breton flag !
My wife's father is an intellectual, he has been a professor in a University, and one day around 20 years ago his contract has been terminated because he had started to work on a project which was labeled as dangerous and terrorist (!) by the government. He was even been arrested 3 times and kept in prison a total of 7 months without any reason (he was never convicted). Do you want to know what this project was ? The first Breton-English dictionary, published in the 1990s !
Seriously, France is a parody of a democracy when you know that kind of facts. And I could tell you other stories of the same kind. In Brittany the unemployement rate of native Bretons is almost 30%, because the French keep the jobs for themselves, in particular nearly all politicians are French and those among them who bear Bretons names are working against their own kind (for power, money, you know the deal).
It is not even impossible that Discobole is a government agent paid to control Bretons on the internet, we have seen worse things, for example my wife's family phones are all tapped and their house is investigated under false pretences almost every year. Last time my wife's mother wanted to renew her identity papers, despite being born in Brittany from Breton descent, she had to prove she was indeed "French", and ask for many papers to prove it. She was even told by some public officials she should take the American citizenship, as her daughter was American, and that it would be simpler for her !

Sorry if this message is a little in disorder, but I really felt I had to help a little in this conversation, as the violent attitude against kentel really seemed unfair. If Discobole wants to think we are anti-French, then let him think we are because his idea of France is anti-Breton, and you can't be "pro" any country or people when it comes to such a violent, non-democratic, oppressive regime. Seriously, do you hear news about Syria ? Comparison is always biased, but the main difference with Brittany is that the latter is not on the news.

[Mirror Image]

Thank you for that message, Feijenoord. Looking back on my past comment, I really don't understand the negative attack against kentel either. I think it's a shame that people are treated this way for no good reason. I can't imagine all French people have problems with the Bretons, but the French government should recognize the riches of their country and be proud of what has come from it. In other words, they should be proud of their history, which includes the Breton people.

[DieNacht]

I'm a long time reader of this board and I love to read it but for the first time I felt the urge to register after I read this post. So I want to say to kentel that I totally support him after this agressive reaction from discobole, and I thank Gurnatron to have supported kentel too, and to have driven Discobole to go away with all his insults and threats.

I'm from Netherlands originally, but I live in the US. I was a big lover of France, of its culture and language, until I married a Breton woman who has been my wife for 10 years, and I discovered that France was indeed one of the most tyrannic regimes when it comes to minorities, and in particular Bretons (but the same applies to Alsaciens, Basques and others). My wife is from a Breton family where everyone speaks Breton for centuries, despite the interdiction at school and the obligation to speak French in public (as at school, or in court for example, whereas any foreign citizen has a right to speak in his own language with the help of a translator !).
All you need to know is that this people is deprived of basic rights, and oppressed in a way which can only be compared to totalitarian regimes. This is not at all an overstatement, just let me say a few things.
When living in France, my wife has been deprived of a job in a travel agency because she had been speaking Breton with some customers (she spoke French usually but answered in Breton to those who started conversation in her language). After that she could not find any other job. Keep in mind that Bretons cannot be employed in public jobs (not only as teachers, but policemen too, postmans, etc), this is not only a cultural but an ethnic problem, the French have been colonizing Brittany for centuries and it has been worsening during the last century. As kentel said, the Bretons had a big role in French Resistance (whereas most of the French were very eager to collaborate) and after "Liberation" they were thanked by more oppressive measures by the military dictature of De Gaulle (do not forget it lasted until 1969 !), who even banned the Breton flag !
My wife's father is an intellectual, he has been a professor in a University, and one day around 20 years ago his contract has been terminated because he had started to work on a project which was labeled as dangerous and terrorist (!) by the government. He was even been arrested 3 times and kept in prison a total of 7 months without any reason (he was never convicted). Do you want to know what this project was ? The first Breton-English dictionary, published in the 1990s !
Seriously, France is a parody of a democracy when you know that kind of facts. And I could tell you other stories of the same kind. In Brittany the unemployement rate of native Bretons is almost 30%, because the French keep the jobs for themselves, in particular nearly all politicians are French and those among them who bear Bretons names are working against their own kind (for power, money, you know the deal).
It is not even impossible that Discobole is a government agent paid to control Bretons on the internet, we have seen worse things, for example my wife's family phones are all tapped and their house is investigated under false pretences almost every year. Last time my wife's mother wanted to renew her identity papers, despite being born in Brittany from Breton descent, she had to prove she was indeed "French", and ask for many papers to prove it. She was even told by some public officials she should take the American citizenship, as her daughter was American, and that it would be simpler for her !

Sorry if this message is a little in disorder, but I really felt I had to help a little in this conversation, as the violent attitude against kentel really seemed unfair. If Discobole wants to think we are anti-French, then let him think we are because his idea of France is anti-Breton, and you can't be "pro" any country or people when it comes to such a violent, non-democratic, oppressive regime. Seriously, do you hear news about Syria ? Comparison is always biased, but the main difference with Brittany is that the latter is not on the news.

You are describing a modus operandi of the French authorities in Brittany as that of practically a military dictatorship. Those views are rarely heard of. Can you give any links to French or Breton newspapers with a critical attitude corresponding to your own ?   

[kentel]

I'm a long time reader of this board and I love to read it but for the first time I felt the urge to register after I read this post. So I want to say to kentel that I totally support him after this agressive reaction from discobol

Thank you very much for your support, and for registering here for that purpose. Your words weight much more than mine under these circumstances. I appreciate. France wishes it gives the outside world the illusion of a culturally and linguistically unified country where everybody is equal, i.e. equal to a Parisian.

I read once in an academic journal a professor from a university in Canada who wrote that the determination and the hatred of the French authorities against the Breton language and culture were ununderstandable. I don't understand it clearly either, although I have a few clues. Bretons, Basques and Corsicans are the three potentially secessionist regions of France. They have been submitted to a fierce cultural oppression. But, why does the hatred focuses on the Bretons, that's an interesting question, and the answer is rather obvious : Bretons are a peaceful people, that's not the case of the two others... I don't think a guy like Discobole would call so easily a Corsican or a Basque a "fascist little prick". I'm not sure, but I don't think...

[Feijenoord]

Mirror Image, you are right, but after centuries of violence against Bretons, it is quite obvious that this recognition is not possible, first of all because it would mean the end of the privileges the French have, it would mean compensation for the colonization of Brittany, it would mean depriving French families of what they earned with the current system. The only realistic approach is independance (or it would be federalism if France was not the most centralized of western states, which seems actually contradictory with the claims it is a democracy).
As I said I liked France when I was young, before I discovered what the French were doing to minorities, which can only be described as a cultural genocide. As said kentel, the more you know about that, the less you like France. Now I quite agree with what is I guess the prevailing opinion in the world (and particularly in the US) : France is a beautiful country, but we could certainly do without the French.

DieNacht, there are many sources but not always easy to find as censorship from the French state is very strong on this subject. And, of course, as you might know, there is no free press in France (it is not guaranteed by their constitution and very far from being applied). I asked my wife, and she indicated the site of Adsav party : http://www.adsav.org/
About colonization there are articles like this : http://www.adsav.org/communique-82-Colonisation-de-la-Bretagne-Adsav-appelle-les-Bretons-a-la-vigilance.php
There are other sites in Breton but I don't understand them and I guess you wouldn't either...

You're welcome, kentel, and it's a pleasure to set things straight. I hope your people can enjoy freedom one day.
You must be right too about this guy Discobole. But you know why he attacks a Breton and not a Basque or a Corsican : it's because of his cowardness, which is a typical trait of the French. For the same reason, I think the Basques and the Corsicans will be independent before the Bretons. It is sad, but France has remained the same country than during the Algerian war of independence, and I'v got the feeling they won't understand the sense of the word freedom if they don't feel challenged in a very practical sense.

[kentel]

Thank you for that message, Feijenoord. Looking back on my past comment, I really don't understand the negative attack against kentel either. I think it's a shame that people are treated this way for no good reason. I can't imagine all French people have problems with the Bretons, but the French government should recognize the riches of their country and be proud of what has come from it. In other words, they should be proud of their history, which includes the Breton people.

That's the difference between France and the US. Or between France and all its neighbours (Spain, Italy, England, Germany, Belgium and Switzerland, and further Norway, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands etc) : France is an extremely centralized country. Variety is not an advantage, it's an issue which has to be actively dealt with. Everybody has to speak the same language, eat the same "baguette" and venerate the "genius of France" has it was put during the XIXth century.

This is denying the fact that France is a country with a long and extremely complex history, involving many different peoples which had no special good reasons to live together, and which had each their own history. Just think that France is a country of Celtic (Gaulish) substratum, conquered by the Romans and ruled by 3 dynasties of Germanic kings. A country where, until WWII, people spoke occitan, catalan, arpitan, alsacian, flemish, corsican, basque and breton.

Discobole wrote that "When they defend "Federalism" or "separatism" this is an attack against Republic, and against the whole heritage of French Revolution." this is  in fact a true statement : it is an attack against the unity of France. A very instable unity probaly, since he and many other French people behave so incredibly insulting and aggressive when the question of Brittany is raised (and I did not even mention the possibility of a secession in my answers).

However, I do have one satisfaction : this thread is instructive ! I didn't think that the simple question you asked me in the Debussy thread would lead us so far and so deep in the matter ! Now, you are really well informed about the relations between France and Brittany 

[kentel]

DieNacht, there are many sources but not always easy to find as censorship from the French state is very strong on this subject. And, of course, as you might know, there is no free press in France (it is not guaranteed by their constitution and very far from being applied). I asked my wife, and she indicated the site of Adsav party : http://www.adsav.org/
About colonization there are articles like this : http://www.adsav.org/communique-82-Colonisation-de-la-Bretagne-Adsav-appelle-les-Bretons-a-la-vigilance.php
There are other sites in Breton but I don't understand them and I guess you wouldn't either...

Yes, the language is completely unknown by the authorities, that's an issue to them

Most books and papers have been written either in Breton or in French, maybe there's something in English though, I know that people in Quebec were interested in the Breton question. As far as the language is concerned, the best book I could recommand is the History of the Breton Language ("Histoire de la langue bretonne") by Hervé Abalain, a university professor in Brittany, which is unfortunately written in French, but the most factual and dispassionate I've read on the topic. What he tells there about the planified eradication of the language is appalling.

Maybe one day I'll write my own book in English, that's one of my projects.

[Papy Oli]

Feijenoord,

I am French, I do not originate from Brittany but I lived in Finistere for nearly 10 years until the early 90's. I'll be the first to admit that I do not have the in-depth knowledge of how French centralised powers have, openly or under-handingly, muzzled Breton culture over the years/centuries. I do however recollect from news back then, as an example, on the general difficulties the DIWAN schools (independant Breton speaking schools) faced just to be set up or work in the eighties. The Breton culture is an absolute gem and indeed it is must be absolutely safeguarded in whatever ways. Whilst they may possibly be perceived as parades for tourists, I still feel that Celtic festivals (Lorient, Quimper) and actions/recordings by various Breton artists (Dan Ar Bras, Denez Prigent to name only couple) are key to maintain the breton culture and language alive. From this perspective, I fully understand what both you and Kentel feel strongly about and how you want to defend whatever threatens this.

What I disagree with, however, is how you have been very quick to tar all the French people with the same brush. Pretty much how you perceive that all French people do tar the Bretons in the same manner...to me, your last post doesn't necessarily show you in a better light than Discobole's did for him.

As for France being a censoring dictatorship, it may be true on the breton subject matter, I have very seldomly read about Brittany issues in the "generaliste" press, but again, just a sweeping generalisation on your part. You should have a look at Mediapart or Rue 89 for size. They seem to be fairly efficient as muck-racking counter-powers to the political Parisianist elites and show them for what they can truly be. I do not think such media outlets would last long in an actual dictatorship. Thankfully such sites still exist in France, especially in the latter years.

[kentel]

Feijenoord,

I am French, I do not originate from Brittany but I lived in Finistere for nearly 10 years until the early 90's. I'll be the first to admit that I do not have the in-depth knowledge of how French centralised powers have, openly or under-handingly, muzzled Breton culture over the years/centuries. I do however recollect from news back then, as an example, on the general difficulties the DIWAN schools (independant Breton speaking schools) faced just to be set up or work in the eighties. The Breton culture is an absolute gem and indeed it is must be absolutely safeguarded in whatever ways. Whilst they may possibly be perceived as parades for tourists, I still feel that Celtic festivals (Lorient, Quimper) and actions/recordings by various Breton artists (Dan Ar Bras, Denez Prigent to name only couple) are key to maintain the breton culture and language alive. From this perspective, I fully understand what both you and Kentel feel strongly about and how you want to defend whatever threatens this.

What I disagree with, however, is how you have been very quick to tar all the French people with the same brush. Pretty much how you perceive that all French people do tar the Bretons in the same manner...to me, your last post doesn't necessarily show you in a better light than Discobole's did for him.

As for France being a censoring dictatorship, it may be true on the breton subject matter, I have very seldomly read about Brittany issues in the "generaliste" press, but again, just a sweeping generalisation on your part. You should have a look at Mediapart or Rue 89 for size. They seem to be fairly efficient as muck-racking counter-powers to the political Parisianist elites and show them for what they can truly be. I do not think such media outlets would last long in an actual dictatorship. Thankfully such sites still exist in France, especially in the latter years.

That's good to hear a moderate non-nationalist and Brittany-lover Frenchman ! Thanks for your post !

Some of my friends are working for Diwan, and yes, the history of this school circle is a long quarrel between them and the French authorities. It still is, but there's a new protagonist in the story : Europe. And Europe supports such language and education/culture-related initiatives. Not on philhantropic grounds actually, but on strategic ones... whatever....

Mediapart has been a revolution : the first investigation newspaper fully independant we ever had (with the Canard Enchaîné maybe). Rue89 is fine but not as well-documented nor well-written as Mediapart is.

I am actually from Finistere, and got my MA from Brest university. Which city did you live in during these 10 years ?

[Feijenoord]

Feijenoord,

I am French, I do not originate from Brittany but I lived in Finistere for nearly 10 years until the early 90's. I'll be the first to admit that I do not have the in-depth knowledge of how French centralised powers have, openly or under-handingly, muzzled Breton culture over the years/centuries. I do however recollect from news back then, as an example, on the general difficulties the DIWAN schools (independant Breton speaking schools) faced just to be set up or work in the eighties. The Breton culture is an absolute gem and indeed it is must be absolutely safeguarded in whatever ways. Whilst they may possibly be perceived as parades for tourists, I still feel that Celtic festivals (Lorient, Quimper) and actions/recordings by various Breton artists (Dan Ar Bras, Denez Prigent to name only couple) are key to maintain the breton culture and language alive. From this perspective, I fully understand what both you and Kentel feel strongly about and how you want to defend whatever threatens this.

What I disagree with, however, is how you have been very quick to tar all the French people with the same brush. Pretty much how you perceive that all French people do tar the Bretons in the same manner...to me, your last post doesn't necessarily show you in a better light than Discobole's did for him.

As for France being a censoring dictatorship, it may be true on the breton subject matter, I have very seldomly read about Brittany issues in the "generaliste" press, but again, just a sweeping generalisation on your part. You should have a look at Mediapart or Rue 89 for size. They seem to be fairly efficient as muck-racking counter-powers to the political Parisianist elites and show them for what they can truly be. I do not think such media outlets would last long in an actual dictatorship. Thankfully such sites still exist in France, especially in the latter years.

Thank you for this answer, and I'm sorry if you did not like some things I said. Maybe this is because you're French, therefore you can't have all the objectivity that is required for such a difficult debate. But even if all the French are not anti-Breton, they dont't do anything against the situation, therefore they accept it and benefit from it, as the master benefits from the slaves even if he does not treat them badly.
It is true, I don't hold the French very high in my heart, but it is only because of their usual defects, that everyone knows too well (dishonesty, stubbornness, laziness). There is something cultural in these aspects, that you can find even in the Belgian French community whereas the Flemish ("Dutch" Belgians) are a trustworthy and hard working people. But I would easily admit that the first reason is probably the result of recent history (no more than 2 centuries) and of very bad governement. There is one fact that is too rarely taken into account : France as been at war with every single country in Europe, even Portugal or Russia ! No other country in Europe (even Germany !) has such a bad record... And it is too clear that France is not a democracy : such a country, with many local people, ethnies, languages, cultures, will not be a democracy as long as these different regions are not independent, or at least as long as the state is not Federal. Again, France is the only European country (of this size, at least) which doesn't have a Federal state, or didn't give more powers to local governments (as in Spain and UK). This is a total lack of democracy and I think European Union and maybe other International organizations should have a firm attitude towards France and force this state to be more democratic, adapt itself to the world, accept a referendum for independence in every local region and become a Federal state or even better give all possible powers to regions below and EU for the rest of them. Then Paris and its region would be equal to Brittany, there would be no other tie between them than Brussels and European Parliament, the Bretons would speak Breton, the French would live in Paris and speak French.

I know this is a little "revolutionary", but this vision is actually what democracy requires. In such difficult contexts, you must give power to the people to decide ! In place of that, there will be this year an election in France and guess what : the Bretons will have no choice but to vote for French politicians !

[Scion7]

I acknowledge the concerns of many of the Bretons, and their feelings, but let's ease off calling all French lazy and stubborn or cowardly - those kind of stereotypes don't add anything to this discussion.  I worked on a project from the States with a French allied company out of Chateaudun, and many of the people I had to work with were infuriating, but many were not in any way lazy or stubborn, and they got that project completed.

France has erred in their political actions many times, but so has everyone else to some degree or another.   In America, due to far-left liberals and some conservatives who've gone off the rails, a non-American often has very skewed views of the average Joe in this country, which are false.

Your going to find a few flies on any cake once you set it out.   

[kentel]

It is true, I don't hold the French very high in my heart, but it is only because of their usual defects, that everyone knows too well (dishonesty, stubbornness, laziness). There is something cultural in these aspects, that you can find even in the Belgian French community whereas the Flemish ("Dutch" Belgians) are a trustworthy and hard working people. But I would easily admit that the first reason is probably the result of recent history (no more than 2 centuries) and of very bad governement. There is one fact that is too rarely taken into account : France as been at war with every single country in Europe, even Portugal or Russia ! No other country in Europe (even Germany !) has such a bad record...

Let's be objective, and not overwhelmed by bad feelings. French are not lazy, nor dishhonest, nor stubborn. Some are arrogant and culturally egocentric, BUT, they are well-educated, cultured, and are the most polite people I've ever met (leaving out the Parisian taxi-drivers and pub waiters).

Moreover, I wouldn't side with the Flemish against the Walloons. For historical and political reasons first, and because the Walloons are very kind and friendly. But I agree with you about the weakness of the Belgian governement.

Finally : France has been at war with all its neighbours, but there are good reasons to that. There was a time in History, when they were all willing to crush France because of the Revolution. And the fact that they've been at war with so many countries during their history tends to demonstrate that the Frenchs are anything but cowards.

Again, France is the only European country (of this size, at least) which doesn't have a Federal state,

That's true, and I'd like the Frenchs to look a little bit at what's going on around them.

I know this is a little "revolutionary", but this vision is actually what democracy requires. In such difficult contexts, you must give power to the people to decide ! In place of that, there will be this year an election in France and guess what : the Bretons will have no choice but to vote for French politicians !

The problem here is, that not very much Bretons are ready to vote for a secession (if they would be asked the question, which looks to me definitely unrealistic within the current political context). As I wrote in my first post, many Bretons like me left the country, because there's no work in Brittany, and many French and English went to live there who don't feel concerned about such a matter. Moreover, the generation of my parents have the highest admiration for the French culture and language, and a very low esteem for their own, so they don't see why nor how Brittany could be a separate country.

Last but not least : even if I was asked the question, I would like to see WHO would be the politic leaders in Brittany, because I would hate to leave France for a nationalist Brittany. Nationalism is the worse thing which can happen to a country; it is a synonym of segregation, hatred and intolerance. See Discobole's posts 

[Scion7]

Nationalism is the worse thing which can happen to a country; it is a synonym of segregation, hatred and intolerance.

Sometimes true, sometimes not.  While in Germany it eventually was utilized by fascists to evil ends, and has caused no end of problems in former Yugoslavia, it's been a positive force for the Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, the various Balts, etc.  Just depends if it is used for self-identity and a desire for autonomy.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

[nationalism] has been a positive force for the Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, Hungarians, the various Balts, etc. 

Even these examples are a double-edged sword: consider the record of Czech nationalism against ethnic Germans; Polish nationalism against Jews, Ukrainians and Lithuanians; Slovak nationalism against Hungarians; Baltic nationalism against ethnic Russians and Poles; etc. As often as not, it's an exercise in us-versus-them.

[kentel]

Even these examples are a double-edged sword: consider the record of Czech nationalism against ethnic Germans; Polish nationalism against Jews, Ukrainians and Lithuanians; Slovak nationalism against Hungarians; Baltic nationalism against ethnic Russians and Poles; etc. As often as not, it's an exercise in us-versus-them.

I fully agree : us versus them, that's exactly the point, and I don't think that there can be a "good" nationalism. I defend a language, a culture, not an ethnic group nor a "nation" either.

Incidentally, when you say Polish nationalism against Jews, that's a tough question, but even if I don't deny the fact that, as in all the countries of Europe, Jews have been segregated in Poland, the Polish Jews were killed by the nazis and not by the Poles. The Polish nationalism was directed mainly against the Germans and the Russians (as far as I know...).

In any case, I consider the nationalism as the cause of the most deadly wars we've had (all the European wars from Napoleon to WWII), and I think this reason is good enough to reject it definitely. Federalism is fine : regional entities rules by a federal governement unconnected with the possible local conflicts.