BPO vs VPO

[madaboutmahler]

Often referred to as the greatest orchestras in the world, which one is your favourite?

Started in a discussion with John.

My vote goes to the Berliners! It is my ultimate ambition to conduct them one day!

edit: Overall, not just in a particular time period.

[Lisztianwagner]

These are my absolute favourite orchestras, both are extremely fine!!
My deep love for Karajan might make me vote for the Berliner Philharmoniker, but the Wiener Philharmoniker is definitely amazing as well and I would really like to be a member of it!!

It is too hard to choose, no vote for me

[Ataraxia]

Whoever plays the most Beethoven and the least Mahler.

[DavidW]

VPO but they're both fine.

[Mirror Image]

The Vienna Philharmonic made an early impression on me with the Giulini conducted performance of Bruckner's 9th. I never heard the Berliners reach this level before. I've heard several 9ths come out of Berlin most notably Gunter Wand's performance, but I still think that Vienna played it finer. I never had liked Berlin in Bruckner anyway. The same goes for Berg, Schoenberg, Mahler, Brahms, and pretty much all the heavy hitters in German/Austrian music. I do prefer Berlin in Wagner thanks to Karajan. But like Dave said, they're both fine orchestras.

[trung224]

  I choose BPO. VPO is far more relaxed and something deep in Bruckner or Brahms especially in Adagio movement, but BPO has IMHO explosive and demonic character, which I prefer. If you prefer the autumnal, warm and beauty, VPO is great, but when you need the large-than-life, demonic and sheer power, overstress feeling, BPO is always the first choice.

[bhodges]

Of the two, I chose the BPO, but obviously both are among the world's best. Having heard both live recently (Rattle and the BPO were just here last month, and Dudamel and Vienna came in 2010), I have to give the edge to Berlin. I like what Rattle has done with the ensemble, encouraging them to play just as beautifully as ever (and there are some formidable musicians, such as principal flute Emanuel Pahud) but with more of a raw edge when needed. And Rattle seems to program more contemporary scores; the orchestra gets points in my book for versatility.

--Bruce

[TheGSMoeller]

Not trying to be a downer, but I can't vote, I feel I cannot truly judge an Orchestra on recordings alone. It's all about "live" performances for me, and I have yet to see with BPO or VPO in concert.

[Mirror Image]

  I choose BPO. VPO is far more relaxed and something deep in Bruckner or Brahms especially in Adagio movement, but BPO has IMHO explosive and demonic character, which I prefer. If you prefer the autumnal, warm and beauty, VPO is great, but when you need the larger-than-life, demonic and sheer power, overstress feeling, BPO is always the first choice.

I don't think is a fair judgement at all. The VPO play with plenty of power just listen to their Berg recordings with Abbado or Dohnanyi's performance of The Miraculous Mandarin. It doesn't get much more explosive than that.

[Feijenoord]

VPO of course ! They are just brilliant ! BPO was really good for a short time under Karajan, and they've never had the sound the Viennese have, these strings in particular. When I hear Berlin strings I frequently have the impression of a mediocre choir when you don't really hear the words that are supposed to be heard.
The difference is because of conductors of course, too, I never liked Abbado or Rattle too much, whereas great conductors have been frequently conducting in Vienna, as Bernstein and Kleiber (who almost never conducted the Berliners), or Solti, Von Dohnanyi, Mehta, Maazel... I think the VPO has recorded many more essential discs than the BPO.

[Mirror Image]

VPO of course ! They are just brilliant ! BPO was really good for a short time under Karajan, and they've never had the sound the Viennese have, these strings in particular. When I hear Berlin strings I frequently have the impression of a mediocre choir when you don't really hear the words that are supposed to be heard.
The difference is because of conductors of course, too, I never liked Abbado or Rattle too much, whereas great conductors have been frequently conducting in Vienna, as Bernstein and Kleiber (who almost never conducted the Berliners), or Solti, Von Dohnanyi, Mehta, Maazel... I think the VPO has recorded many more essential discs than the BPO.

Abbado has made some very good VPO recordings. Rattle not so much. But I agree generally with what you say about the VPO. A unique orchestra with a sound all their own.

[trung224]

I don't think is a fair judgement at all. The VPO play with plenty of power just listen to their Berg recordings with Abbado or Dohnanyi's performance of The Miraculous Mandarin. It doesn't get much more explosive than that.

My judgement base on the recording (live and studio) of Karajan, Furtwängler,Abbado,Barbirolli, Böhm with both BPO and VPO with the same pieces (Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert and Bruckner).

VPO of course ! They are just brilliant ! BPO was really good for a short time under Karajan, and they've never had the sound the Viennese have, these strings in particular. When I hear Berlin strings I frequently have the impression of a mediocre choir when you don't really hear the words that are supposed to be heard.
The difference is because of conductors of course, too, I never liked Abbado or Rattle too much, whereas great conductors have been frequently conducting in Vienna, as Bernstein and Kleiber (who almost never conducted the Berliners), or Solti, Von Dohnanyi, Mehta, Maazel... I think the VPO has recorded many more essential discs than the BPO.

VPO doesn't have the Music Director, so indeed they work with so many guest conductors. BPO has Music Directors and they often prevent guest conductors ,who have the contradict musical approach with Music Directors, i.e Furtwängler prevent Karajan, and Karajan prevent Bernstein. In the case of Kleiber, he  admired the unique sound of BPO, but he don't want to work with this sound, so he didn't conduct BPO.
   Your impression with the BPO sound is the thing I admired, all the string, woodwind blend to the wall of sound, the cold but extreme beautiful sound.
    Essentials disc; what about the wartime Beethoven from Furtwängler, the Beethoven symphony cycle 1960 from Karajan, the classic Schubert 9 and Schumann 4, Brahms 1 1952, Brahms 3 1954 and Brahms 4 from Furtwängler, what about Dvorak 9 from Kubelik, the Bruckner recording from Karajan, Jochum,Furtwangler, Richard Srauss's Tone Poems with Karajan or the recently Mahler live cycle from Abbado ... If VPO is at best at Bruckner 8, BPO own Mahler 9 with Barbirolli, Karajan, Bernstein, Abbado. Both orchestral are great but I don't think VPO recorded more essential discs than BPO

[Scion7]

it's a toss-up for me - both of them are very, very fine orchestras for what they do - sometimes I think the BPO has been led on recording dates by a conductor who was less than great, never had that with the VPO that I have purchased - but that's probably just the luck of the draw

[eyeresist]

I think the differences between most modern orchestras are subtle, if they exist at all. The musicians come from outposts of the conservatory system all over the world, and change orchestras not infrequently. Then the differences are also modified by the effect of conductor's interpretation; rehearsal time and morale; and the sound of the hall.

If the question was which orchestra has released more shitty performances on disc, I'd have to say the VPO

[Karl Henning]

 Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 07, 2012, 07:17:26 PM

Not trying to be a downer, but I can't vote, I feel I cannot truly judge an Orchestra on recordings alone. It's all about "live" performances for me, and I have yet to see with BPO or VPO in concert.

 
Excellent point.