Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto

[Mandryka]

Listening to an old record of this concerto with Van Beinum and Casadesus has started to make me interested in this strange concerto, with that sui generis central movement fantasy.

I'm wondering what you think of it, whether you have a favourite performance etc etc.

The Van Beinum/Casadesus sees Van Beinum very inspired. The link to it is on symphonyshare but annoyingly the final movement is missing. Can anyone help? I've also been enjoying Pletnev's record recently, and Olli Mustonen's and Brezowsky's. Does anyone like Gould/Bermstein?

[Ataraxia]

I usually listen to Arrau, Uchida and Fleisher since those are the ones I own. 

[Todd]

I love the 4th.  Love the second movement.  Of course, there are so many versions, it's hard to choose.  In another thread, I listed the below as my faves, and the list still more or less stands.  (Haven't been buying too many LvB concerto recordings as of late).  The Casadesus is good, but I prefer his approach in the 1st more.  I started doing some comparative listening early last year, and got through about 15 versions (I have around 25 or so), but I never finished up.  Maybe I should revisit the concerto again in a comprehensive fashion.

Faves:
Kempff / Leitner
Gilels / Ludwig
Sherman / Neumann
Moravec / Belohlavek
Haskil / Zecchi
Pollini / Abbado
Sanchez / Ros-Marbo (for an 'alternative' approach)

[DieNacht]

I´ve got quite a lot of versions, including some not heard thoroughly.

Agree that Pletnev on DG is interesting.

There´s a rare Yudina/Sanderling and a Josef Hofmann on you-tube also.

Among my current favourites is the most temperamental I´ve heard, the Rubinstein/Mitropoulos/NYPO (1951). Unfortunately it has a rather coarse sound and, what is worse, a series of clicks that will disqualify it to many listeners.

CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Schnabel,Dobrowen,Philh/tim 46-01 10cd 205218-303
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Schnabel,Sargent,LSO/historia 4lp hc650 1-4
CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Casadesus,Ormandy,Philad/tim 47-00 20236-303
CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Roll,Shelley,RPO/int.mu.co 95 20.3316ga
CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Rubinstein,Beecham,LPO/piano libr 47-98 pl281
cd   Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Rubinstein,Beecham,RPO/membran 4cd 47-05 222361-354
web  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Yudina,Sanderling,SO/fra web
CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Rubinstein,Mitropoulos,NYPO/tim 10cd 51-03 220829-303
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Perahia,Haitink,CtGeb/cbs 85 im39814
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/E.Fischer,PhilhO/emi mono falp 30306
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Gould,Bernstein,NYPO/cbs ml 5662
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Brendel,Wallberg,WienProMusica/vox-murray hill 21lp s3456
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Brendel,Haitink,LPO/philips 4lp  6767002
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Fleisher,Szell,ClevO/cbs 3lp 74 77371
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Grinberg,Järvi,SO/mel st c01163-64
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Serkin,Ormandy,PhilaO/ph abl 3164
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Kempff,Leitner,BPO/dg 80 2535 426
lp   Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Gieseking,Keilberth,KölnRSO/disco igi 363
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Novaes,Klemperer,WSO/majestic bbh 701
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Serkin,Toscanini,NBCSO/rca mono 44-72 at100
web Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Pletnev,RussianNatO/dg web


concerning this:
LP (small size) Novaes,Klemperer,WSO/vox-majestic bbh 701
it has a fascinatingly fast and eccentric slow movement, a bit typical also of the earlier Klemperer.

I then bought this vox CD set with same forces, believing to find the same recording there in better sound:



but was very disppointed; it must be another recording, since everything is played much slower and rather dull. So apparently Novaes/Klemperer recorded that work twice

[Mandryka]

I´ve got quite a lot of versions, including some not heard thoroughly.

Agree that Pletnev on DG is interesting.

There´s a rare Yudina/Sanderling and a Josef Hofmann on you-tube also.

Among my current favourites is the most temperamental I´ve heard, the Rubinstein/Mitropoulos/NYPO (1951). Unfortunately it has a rather coarse sound and, what is worse, a series of clicks that will disqualify it to many listeners.

CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Schnabel,Dobrowen,Philh/tim 46-01 10cd 205218-303
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Schnabel,Sargent,LSO/historia 4lp hc650 1-4
CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Casadesus,Ormandy,Philad/tim 47-00 20236-303
CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Roll,Shelley,RPO/int.mu.co 95 20.3316ga
CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Rubinstein,Beecham,LPO/piano libr 47-98 pl281
cd   Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Rubinstein,Beecham,RPO/membran 4cd 47-05 222361-354
web  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Yudina,Sanderling,SO/fra web
CD  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Rubinstein,Mitropoulos,NYPO/tim 10cd 51-03 220829-303
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Perahia,Haitink,CtGeb/cbs 85 im39814
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/E.Fischer,PhilhO/emi mono falp 30306
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Gould,Bernstein,NYPO/cbs ml 5662
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Brendel,Wallberg,WienProMusica/vox-murray hill 21lp s3456
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Brendel,Haitink,LPO/philips 4lp  6767002
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Fleisher,Szell,ClevO/cbs 3lp 74 77371
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Grinberg,Järvi,SO/mel st c01163-64
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Serkin,Ormandy,PhilaO/ph abl 3164
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Kempff,Leitner,BPO/dg 80 2535 426
lp   Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Gieseking,Keilberth,KölnRSO/disco igi 363
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Novaes,Klemperer,WSO/majestic bbh 701
LP  Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Serkin,Toscanini,NBCSO/rca mono 44-72 at100
web Beethoven:"4.Klaverkoncert" G-Dur op.58 (1805)/Pletnev,RussianNatO/dg web


concerning this:
LP (small size) Novaes,Klemperer,WSO/vox-majestic bbh 701
it has a fascinatingly fast and eccentric slow movement, a bit typical also of the earlier Klemperer.

I then bought this vox CD set with same forces, believing to find the same recording there in better sound:



but was very disppointed; it must be another recording, since everything is played much slower and rather dull. So apparently Novaes/Klemperer recorded that work twice

Rubinstein/Mitropoulos is ccertainly one of my favourites.

I haven't checked which Hoffman is on youtube but the Hoffman record with Mitropolos is amazing really. Hofmann seems to be at the exact opposite pole from Moravec/Turnowsk. While Moravec/Turnowsky bring out the Sturm and Drang everywhere -- the are some major storms in their reading of the first movement, for example -- Hofmann turns the storms into showers of diamonds. Extraordinary the way he integrates the fortissimo outbust in the slow movement so smoothly with what precedes it.

There's another recording of it which Hoffman made with Ormandy. Sometimes  you can hardly hear the orchestra at all. I have a friend who says that that is deliberate on Ormandy's part -- a sort of act of modesty in the face of the pianist.  The final movement ha an incredible brio. And the central movement is very calm and flowing thoughout. The piano gleams.

I haven't heard Hoffman's third record with Barbirolli. There may be more than one -- I can't remember.

Did Michelangeli record this concerto? What about Backhaus: which are his best records of it?

[Mandryka]

I love the 4th.  Love the second movement.  Of course, there are so many versions, it's hard to choose.  In another thread, I listed the below as my faves, and the list still more or less stands.  (Haven't been buying too many LvB concerto recordings as of late).  The Casadesus is good, but I prefer his approach in the 1st more.  I started doing some comparative listening early last year, and got through about 15 versions (I have around 25 or so), but I never finished up.  Maybe I should revisit the concerto again in a comprehensive fashion.

Faves:
Kempff / Leitner
Gilels / Ludwig
Sherman / Neumann
Moravec / Belohlavek
Haskil / Zecchi
Pollini / Abbado
Sanchez / Ros-Marbo (for an 'alternative' approach)

I too have often thought of trying to explore recordings of this concerto some more, but it's hard to get a grip on the different styles of performance. For me the first movement is key: whether the performance plays it turbulently or whether it plays it joyfully, glittering, or whether it's played with grandeur or warmth and affection.

From the list I like Pollini/Abbado very much more than Pollini/Bohm.

[Holden]

This is my favourite LvB PC - actually my favourite PC regardless of composer

The 4th is unique in that the piano takes the lead right from the start and determines both tempo and approach. It is a concerto where the soloist and conductor have to complement each other and that happens very rarely IMO.

That first chord, the weight given to it by the pianist, the tonal emphasis is so important and the orchestra has to follow. This is a very organic composition and what is set up in that first movement profoundly affects the rest of the work.

From what I've heard only two recordings get his spot on.

Gilels/Ludwig

and one not mentioned on this thread so far

Moravec/Turnovsky.

I've never bothered to seek another 4th after hearing these two

[North Star]

This is my favourite LvB PC - actually my favourite PC regardless of composer

The 4th is unique in that the piano takes the lead right from the start and determines both tempo and approach. It is a concerto where the soloist and conductor have to complement each other and that happens very rarely IMO.

That first chord, the weight given to it by the pianist, the tonal emphasis is so important and the orchestra has to follow. This is a very organic composition and what is set up in that first movement profoundly affects the rest of the work.

...From what I've heard only two recordings get his spot on....I've never bothered to seek another 4th after hearing these two

I think I see a connection there 
Not that there's anything wrong with not buying every recording of the 4th Piano Concerto, and most likely you've heard a lot of versions before those two.
As for the rest of the post, I agree with everything you've said.

Mustonen's recording I really should get - I heard him live (conducting & playing) about a year ago, the performance was superb.

[UberB]

Fleisher/Szell is my favorite. Gilels/Ludwig is good too.

[Leo K.]

For years my top choices have been:

Tan/Norrington
Lubin/Hogwood

There is something about the fortepiano that really makes this work sound nostalgic.



Now I'm seeking more MI recordings, preferably historic, as I have a Furtwangler conducted one (pianist?) that is incredible.

I also have Uchida's account and love it. Think i'll listen to it real soon.

[Scion7]

        click image to embiggen




Passion, dynamism, excellently recorded.     

[val]

The 4th is my favorite of Beethoven's Piano Concertos.

My preference goes to Gilels/Ludwig. Also very good Serkin/Toscanini, Backhaus/Isserstedt, and, in a lesser degree, Kempff/van Kempen.

[prémont]

For years my top choices have been:

levin/Hogwood

A bit ambiguous. Do you mean Lubin/Hogwood or Levin/Gardiner?

[prémont]

My preference goes to Gilels/Ludwig. Also very good Serkin/Toscanini, Backhaus/Isserstedt, and, in a lesser degree, Kempff/van Kempen.

My preference goes also to Gilels/Ludwig. Strong contenders are IMO Arrau/Galliera, Backhaus/Schmidt-Isserstedt, Kempff/Leitner and Lubin/Hogwood.

[DieNacht]

Has anyone heard Badura-Skoda/Scherchen ? I know 1,2 & 5 & find them good, whereas the 3rd, heard a long time ago, was memorable for some a bit comical, chaotic final chords, apparently the result of a one-take recording ...

[Mandryka]

Has anyone heard Badura-Skoda/Scherchen ? I know 1,2 & 5 & find them good, whereas the 3rd, heard a long time ago, was memorable for some a bit comical, chaotic final chords, apparently the result of a one-take recording ...

]]

Here it is

http://open.spotify.com/album/5EC24BOS0RaJSTE9iaWsG3

Why do people prefer Gilels/Ludwig to Gilels/Sanderling? Is it sound? I much prefer the latter, which is more dynamic I think. 

Some are the ones mentioned are a mystery to me. What on earth is the value of Kempff/Leitner -- can someone who likes it sell it to me please, because I must be missing something.

Serkin/Toscanini is that ancient thing which was recorded on dog biscuits, right? Or do you have a good transfer? If so, please give a link.

[DieNacht]

Thanks. I don´t have Spotify but am considering it. Does anyone know if the streaming service also means downloading MBs ? I have a limit of 5GB download / month ...

[Mandryka]

That's a shame. It's nice -- I'm playing it now. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.

I can't answer your question about streaming. I can say that spotify premium service, if you can link it to hifi, is worth having.

[Leo K.]

A bit ambiguous. Do you mean Lubin/Hogwood or Levin/Gardiner?

Oops! Bad typo.

Yes, I mean Lubin/Hogwood. Will correct my original post.

[val]

Mandryka


Why do people prefer Gilels/Ludwig to Gilels/Sanderling? Is it sound? I much prefer the latter, which is more dynamic I think. 

Some are the ones mentioned are a mystery to me. What on earth is the value of Kempff/Leitner -- can someone who likes it sell it to me please, because I must be missing something.

Serkin/Toscanini is that ancient thing which was recorded on dog biscuits, right? Or do you have a good transfer? If so, please give a link.

Never heard Gilels/Sanderling. Regarding the version with Leopold Ludwig, Gilels seems much more spontaneous and natural than usual. I prefer this version to the one with Szell.

Kempff/Leitner? I agree with you, in the previous version Paul van Kempen was a better director and Kempff seems more inspired in special in the first movement.

Serkin/Toscanini. I don't understand that thing about dog biscuits. I had this version on LP. Incandescent. But too tense in the first movement. The sound was not very good but I have heard much worse.