Blind comparison : Bach's Toccata BWV 914 (harpsichord)

Started by Que, March 22, 2012, 11:06:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Que

Since Discobole decided not to actively post, I'm doing the honours of opening this thread to comments by the participants of this listening-and-comparing exercise around this Bach harpsichord toccata.  :) There are no less than 14 versions to choose from! :o

The proceedings have just started, I guess anyone else interested in participating could send Discobole a PM.

Q

Opus106

Quote from: Que on March 22, 2012, 11:06:04 PM
Since Discobole decided not to actively post, I'm doing the honours of opening this thread to comments by the participants of this listening-and-comparing exercise around this Bach harpsichord toccata.  :)

Dat is leuk. Bedankt. :)
Regards,
Navneeth

Que


premont

As far as I understand the solution will be published the 31.3.

I am going to send my answer on that day and hope that many others will answer too.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Que

Why not post here, as we did before? :)

I'll post the final results here, so that everybody else can see it too.

Q

premont

Quote from: Que on March 27, 2012, 01:55:29 PM
Why not post here, as we did before? :)

Q

I have sent Discbole my votes to day, and I shall certainly also post here hoping that the others, which are participating in this game, do the same. But I shall wait until 31.3, because I remember from the BVW 733 game, that it was possible to read the other posters answers, before you answered youself, and this is IMO not ideal, as you may become biased thereby.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

mc ukrneal

Quote from: (: premont :) on March 27, 2012, 02:05:03 PM
I have sent Discbole my votes to day, and I shall certainly also post here hoping that the others, which are participating in this game, do the same. But I shall wait until 31.3, because I remember from the BVW 733 game, that it was possible to read the other posters answers, before you answered youself, and this is IMO not ideal, as you may become biased thereby.
If you post with the text the color of the background, people won't be tempted (although you came up with an equally clever way to hide them).
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

mc ukrneal

Harpsichord.  Before I even started this, I was not sure I would be able to finish it. I am not a huge fan of the harpsichord. But the first example had such a nice sound, so after that I was in a great frame of mind. My ratings will take into account the sound as well as the interpretation.  What was interesting to me as I went on was how each instrument really sounded different. Picking a harpsichord performance is harder than picking a piano performance. With piano, they all sound the same, the question is how they differentiate themselves using that instrument. Here, they all sound different and you might like the instrument for one, but not the interpretation (or vice versa).

My top three would be (and I think they were ahead quite a bit compared to the rest):
First place – #2
Second place – #6
Third place – #9

General Comments:
#1 – Fat sound and quite warm. Didn't tire of it. Not the most exciting interpretation. A lot of stop and go. But warm and attractive approach. A solid effort.
#2 – Found myself tiring of the sound, but the interpretation had so much more life to it. A real pleasure to hear such quality playing.  A quick one too – one of only two versions under 7 minutes (and both of those under 6:30). I must admit, I was riveted by this one.
#3 –Style here reminded me a bit of the renaissance. I would not put this into the top three, but I could see some people liking this. In this version though, I didn't get a good feel for the overall line of the piece and this was a problem for me since this was only the third time I was hearing it. Definitely different from the previous two though. Didn't really like this one.
#4 – Definitely don't like the sound of this harpsichord (particularly the highs) - much more fatiguing. Interpretation was a bit more stop and start like the first one in the early parts. But it was fairly solid overall.
#5 – Sound ok (not great, but ok). Lots of hesitations in the playing that I did not like (more so at the beginning).  Didn't quite like the balance in the sound as much either (more uniform). 
#6 – From the beginning, a softer instrument (less edged), and a bit of a relief after #5. A bit more staccato of an approach that I liked after the last one.  Good version. Incidentally, also on the faster side (at 7.03). Riveted by this one too.
#7 – Decent sound, though colder than #6. I found myself really liking this at times, but then really disliking it (and I think the problem was the phrasing at times).
#8 – Less declamatory approach to start (which I liked).  Didn't like the instrument (the sound, plus not as interesting in the lows). Too fussy an approach. Either this player added trills or is accenting them to make them stand out and I didn't like this. I felt the performer was accenting all the details, but missing the bigger picture.
#9 – This one grabs you from the first note. Sound is ok. Approach holds you throughout. Too bad about all the audience sounds and such. Nice version.Actually, also under seven minutes (with the clapping it appears longer).
#10 – Moderate sound. Warm, but there is something there I don't like. Wearing on the ear. Not a fan of this version. Drags for me.
#11 – Don't like the sound at all. It also did not have a consistent tempo (imprecision is perhaps more accurate).
#12 – Oh boy. A big no for me at the beginning. But then it gets sane after the intro. The sound of the instrument is the worst so far.  The interpretation is quite interesting as it progresses, but I cannot get past the sound which was the most wearing for me. I imagine others will like this more.
#13 – Don't really love this instrument either. Too pingy. Maybe I am getting tired? While I don't like this, I feel there is much more detail noticeable compared to the previous one.
#14 –  A warmer sounding instrument (tuned differently – seems a bit flat to me in moments, which makes it harder to listen for me).
I am actually quite excited to see if my choices were in line or off the wall. As someone who rarely listens to harpsichord, anything is possible.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

premont

#8
Yesterday Discbole draw my attention to the fact, that I might have confused the numbers of the clips in my first vote, so I had to revise all of it, and now my comments should refer to the right clips.

Edit: Like ~Que~ I have added the "solution" in brackets and black after the revelation.
     

I fast recognized four of the items, but can´t recall that I have heard the other eight items. But I have heard a lot of other Bach recordings by the ones I suggest.

1)   Non period instrument, relative uninformed playing (e.g. rather legato, no cadential trills)  . Many harpsichordists played more or less in that way in the 1960es (Martin Galling, Edith Pixt-Axenfeldt  to name a few), but the expressive rubato this player sometimes uses  points at a more individualistic  player. It might f.i. be Isolde Ahlgrimm or Igor Kipnis. [Christiane Jaccottet]

2)   Period instrument (probably French style ), interpretation fast and energetic. This musician displays his/her technical superiority throughout and has also got a fine grasp on the stylus phantasticus of the piece. [Trevor Pinnock]

3)     Clavichord. The vivid and expressive style of Richard Troeger. [Richard Troeger]

4)   Period instrument (French type). Rather legato, slow beginning, at times drawling, but a fast and a bit superficial concluding  fugue with some notable inorganic added ornamentation – I recall what Discbole wrote elsewhere about Rannou´s ornamentation.  [Blandine Rannou]

5)   Non period instrument (sounds like Ammer or alike). Playing style straight (preauthentic)  and not particularly  inspired or inspiring. Might well be Zuzana Ruzickova. [Ursula Dütschler]

6)   Period instrument of mixed type – most French I think. Informed playing, sweeping style, reminds me of Eduard Parmentier´s Bach from the English suites (have not heard his toccatas).  [Gustav Leonhardt]

7)   Rather big period instrument in German style. The broad style of Watchorn is evident. [Peter Watchorn]

8.)   Period instrument, very big, could be the Hass/Sidey instrument Andreas Staier has used for a number of recordings. The breakneck speed of the concluding  fugue points in the same direction. On the other hand  the first three movements are rather reflective, rather unusual for Staiers Bach playing in general. But my best guess is Staier. [Andreas Staier]

9)   Live recording. Tuning a=440, so probably not period harpsichord even if it sounds kind of period. Playing style informed,energetic and well articulated. Could be Staier too, even if my first association to this kind of playing is Pierre Hantaï. [Scott Ross]

10)   Probably non-period  harpsichord with overly use of lute stop. Rather legato and laid back style. Very beautiful and expressive playing in the Introduction and the Adagio, but more strict style in the concluding fugue.  I have no idea about the identity of the player.  I have got a feeling, that we must move  to the North American continent to find him/her. [Blandine Verlet] first recording Philips

11)   Period harpsichord, mixed style but most French I think. Interpretation informed, brilliant, colourful, elegant, could hardly be bettered. I think this is Gustav Leonhardt. [Cèline Frisch]

12)   Period harpsichord, German style. The hectic introduction and tense Adagio reveals Bob van Asperen, one of my preferred performers of the toccatas. [Bob van Asperen] first recording EMI

13)   Period instrument, probably French style. Interpretation informed, integrated, a bit willful and very impressive. [Pierre Hantaï]

14)    Period instrument  (Ruckers type), Informed playing (Blandine Verlet). I like her spontaneous style, and think her Adagio is the best of the lot. [Blandine Verlet] second recording Astrée


My preferred versions are no. 11, no. 2 and no. 13 in that order.  It was difficult to choose between no. 2 and no. 11.

I disfavor no. 4 the most, no. 1 the second most and no. 5 the third most.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

premont

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 29, 2012, 12:29:33 PM
If you post with the text the color of the background, people won't be tempted (although you came up with an equally clever way to hide them).

Thanks for the tip.

γνῶθι σεαυτόν

mszczuj

I send my vote there:

http://classik.forumactif.com/t6085-ecoute-comparee-bach-toccata-bwv-914-31-mars#765858

It was very funny for me as je ne parle pas francaise  and the last time I was writing antything in this language was 30 years ago. But I don't feel any better in English.

Que

OK, here it goes!  :) I can't wait to read up on all the comments after posting this. :D

EDIT: I added the names of the performers after their revelation.

1. Old School, historically uninformed. Dull, boring. Need I say more? ::) [Christiane Jaccottet]

2. Intimate sounding harpsichord. Nice, very elegant though not very strong - I miss a bit of Bachian gravitas, it's on the "pretty" side. A French player (and harpsichord), and a woman, if I had to guess. And I guess, I have to! :D This performance should end up amongst the front runners. [Trevor Pinnock]

3. A clavichord. This must be Troeger? And he still sounds not as uninspired as I remember his playing. Still, it's still rather plodding. It shows that playing a clavichord is actually very hard. [Richard Troeger]

4. This one I like. Rich and sonorous sound. The playing is expansive and sometimes on the slow side, but has sufficient thrust. Very detailed and careful phrasing. I like the dash at the end. Is this Van Asperen? [Blandine Rannou]

5. A grand and stately affair. Rather deliberate, the whole operation regularly grinds to a halt which makes it feel disjointed. It's not bad, but doesn't light my fire either. One of Leonhardt's American pupils, maybe? [Ursula Dütschler]

6. Oh my, the lackluster opening is rather sad. It does pick up on the way, but rather lackluster and lifeless it remains. The rapturous endgame sounds better, but still a bit dutiful and can't save the piece. [Gustav Leonhardt]

7. Something with the acoustics here - live?  Nice, rhythmically controlled, carefully done and strong, straight forward playing at moderate tempo. It certainly has gravitas. Nice. Leonhardt? [Peter Watchorn]

8. An older, dim recording. Too much legato, which makes the music come out rather dry. And slow. The endgame is done like a sewing machine with some thunderous, blurring effects. As premont would say: this is no Stylus Phantasticus!! :o 8) [Andreas Staier]

9. A live recording. There is a constant low hum in the background which is distracting. Playing is HIP but erratic and uneven. No careful buildup but quirky deconstructionism. Must be an Italian! ;D Hantaï? Or is it maybe Scott Ross?? ::) [Scott Ross]

10. Oh s*&t, we are back in the dull and boring old days again... The instrument sounds like crap, the playing uninspired. No thanks. I didn't even listen this one till the end... [Blandine Verlet 1974]

11. Fortunately another good one. Swift, but light and transparent. A beautiful instrument always helps, sonorous yet very pleasant on the ear. Very well phrased and articulated playing. I think this might be my favourite so far...definitely stylus phantasticus. A beauty, luxurious and relaxing like a warm bath... [Céline Frisch]

12. What is going on here?! :o This starts of with a very brittle and blurry sound coming from the harpsichord. And this harpsichordist has no clue whatsoever where he/she is going...weird phrasing, wrong accents. Is this an attempt to play Bach like Frescobaldi? Uhhh....now I come to think of it - is this Vartolo? ??? [Bob van Asperen EMI/Virgin]

13. Another fairly swift one, very attractive.  Simple but elegant, with spicy accents. One of the good ones. [Pierre Hantaï]

14. Last, but definitely not least. I like the humming sound of the lower undertones. Willfully played, strong separation of left and right hand. Rhythmically spiky - a real "Toccata". [Blandine Verlet 1995]

So, looking at the list the leaders of the pack are nrs. 2, 4, 11, 13 and 14.

I thouroughly enjoyed re-listening to each of these. But the following order of preference emerged: nr. 11 is the favourite, closely followed by nrs. 2 and 13. Nr. 14 has an attractive improvisatory character about it, but is a bit too French stylistically. Nr. 4 was ultimately too low on voltage, but still sounding stylish.

[Frisch, Pinnock & Hantaï, Verlet, Rannou]

Q

Opus106

I'm pretty sure that I will do a U-turn on some as soon as I listen to these for a second time. ;D I'll simply list my top three without going into much detail (not that I have anything detailed to say in the first place), and perhaps a comment or two about some of the others.

begin
05 - to me, the best combination of sound and pacing.
06
10 - found this comparatively slower in the final fugue, but it is solely here for that lovely harpsichord sound




09 - this had the second best sound, but somehow lost out in the final race, and the speed demon of the final fugue could have been slower
12 - gets the 'Spirit of the Flashy Style' award :-D... exciting, but not something to which I'll likely return
11 - very austere and straight-laced, I thought. Going by what members usually say about them, a member of the Dutch school? :-D
02 - sewing machine!

Again, as I said, these are my first and only impressions so far.
end
Regards,
Navneeth

Que

Quote from: Discobole on March 31, 2012, 03:33:48 PM
Here is the final ranking, starting from the bottom. Thanks to all of you for participating  8)
More details (in French) here : http://classik.forumactif.com/t6085p49-ecoute-comparee-bach-toccata-bwv-914-31-mars
"Moy." is for "mean ranking"

14 : version 7 - Peter Watchorn (Hänssler, 1999) (moy. 10,36)


13 : version 12 - Bob van Asperen (Virgin, 2/1990) Harpsichord Christian Szell (Hambourg), 1728 (moy. 9,77)


12 : version 1 - Christiane Jaccottet (Intercord, 1984) (moy. 9,05)


11 : version 5 - Ursula Dütschler (Claves, 2001) (moy. 8,86)


10 : version 10 - Blandine Verlet (Philips 1974) Harpsichord Hemsch 1754 (moy. 8,54)


9 : Version 3, Richard Troeger (Lyrichord, 2000) Clavichord (moy. 8,27)


8 : Version 13, Pierre Hantaï (Virgin, 6/1997) Harpsichord Katzman 1997 d'après Ruckers (moy. 8,18)


7 : Version 6, Gustav Leonhardt (Philips, 12/1984) Harpsichord Dowd 1984 d'après Mietke (moy. 7,68)


6 : Version 14, Blandine Verlet (Astrée, 1995) Harpsichord Hans Ruckers II, 1624 (moy. 7,23)


5 : Version 8, Andreas Staier (HM, 2008) Harpsichord Sidey d'après Hass 1734 (moy. 6,64)


4 : Version 4, Blandine Rannou (Zig Zag, 2005) (moy. 6,45) but most frequently voted against than version 2



3 : Version 2, Trevor Pinnock (Archiv, 1978) (moy. 6,45)






2 : Version 9, Scott Ross (live, 1979-1873?, INA) (moy. 5,59)






1 : Version 11, Céline Frisch (alpha, 2010) Harpsichord allemand d'Anthony Sidey (moy. 3,82)





Que

The day after the night before brings several surprises! :)

First surprise for me was - or maybe not, because I did not think I recognised it - was the sad absence of my own current favourite recording by Léon Berben:

[asin]B002EQBB24[/asin].

Of course when I got up this morning, I did a thourough A-B comparison between Léon Berben and my own favourite in the game AND the overall winner, Céline Frisch. Actually, maybe not surprising, their interpretative approach is quite close. After deliberating - of course this was no blind comparison - I think I would ultimaltely prefer Berben, if only marginally. I think his opening is a bit more natural and he manages the keep the raptorous endgame a bit more transparent and sparkling. But they are very, very close. In fact I will get that disc by Frisch - the programming of various composers that inspired the young Bach, makes it all the more interesting. This also means BTW that for those that preferred Frisch and are looking for a recording of the complete harpsichord Toccatas, I strongly recommend Berben's brand new recording as a viable option! :)

Another important absentee was Bob van Asperen's 2nd recording on Warner/Teldec - I was impressed by that. Instead the contest included his 1st try on EMI/Virgin. Well, I thought it was just horrible...

Another surpise is that Peter Watchorn, favoured by quite some Bachians, ended up last. I stated before that I like it, but eventually lost interest. I'm glad to say that he ended up im my own list somewhere in the upper-middle of the pack, just after my "notables" :) I would describe him as the "safe" and rather conservative choice. Not supringly that I thought it was Leonhardt! :) But we've moved on in Bach interpretations now...

Speaking of Leonhardt, I was saddened by the fact that his interpretation left so little impact on me.. :-\

Pinnock was the biggest surprise to me. I never imagined him as an attractive Bachian for me.

Chapeau for Hantaï! :) And good to see that my assertion that Rannou's Toccatas are (amongst) her best Bach, bears out.

Staier didn't do well with me. I stand by my view that he is not a natural and true Bachian.

A pleasant surprise was Verlet's 1995 recording - nice! :)

And the only name I guessed right was of Scott Ross! ;D

Well, it has been an interesting ride. 8) Many thanks to Discobole for organising it. :)

Q

premont


The abscence of two of my favorites (Leon Berben and Lars Ulrik Mortensen) was a pity.

Surprising to me that Jaccottet´s interpretation was so old-fashioned, even if I always thought that the toccata´s were the least interesting part of her Bach set.
For general information I can add, that she plays a harpsichord by W. Dobson 1965 - copy of an Italian model.

Retrospectively I am not surprised of my top choices, and think I would have made identical choices, if I had known the names of the performers.
Interesting BTW that my top choices are identical with ~Que~´s.

I had never before heard Gustav Leonhardt´s recording and only late became aware that he actually recorded the piece, but I was not able identify him, only his style. The sweeping and a bit slapdash playing on his recording made me instead think of one of his less interesting pupils (Parmentier).

If Discobole had chosen van Asperens second recording (Teldec) I am sure that he would have got more points.

This game has convinced me, that I do not need to acquire the recordings of Dütschler, Staier,  first Verlet and not even Leonhardt. This is good news for a completist. 8)

γνῶθι σεαυτόν

jlaurson

#16
Couldn't get my ears around it. Whether that's because the Toccatas are not my favorite Bach or some other deficiency on my part, I don't know. My reactions were grossly different from day to day... one day I wouldn't much like any, on another all of them. Ultimately I was too busy to do a proper job... but them being busy is a good thing for it means food on the table. :-)

The few comments I did manage to jot down were:

1.) hard, unyielding sound - bright harpsichord, bloody stereotype-inducing sewing machine [Christiane Jaccottet]
2.) it gains through its speed... the momentum is good...almost reminds me of suzuki's style....  [Trevor Pinnock]
3.) from frying pan into fire, but now muffled. [Richard Troeger]
4.) yes... I think!
5.) full bodied, resonant, big harpsichord [Ursula Dütschler]
7.) good sound, overblown, fluid, not outstanding, but very fine, 'uncomplainable', ultimately boring? [Peter Watchorn]

Folia

Quote from: Que on March 22, 2012, 11:06:04 PM
Since Discobole decided not to actively post, I'm doing the honours of opening this thread to comments by the participants of this listening-and-comparing exercise around this Bach harpsichord toccata.  :) There are no less than 14 versions to choose from! :o

The proceedings have just started, I guess anyone else interested in participating could send Discobole a PM.

Q

I just found out about this item (and board). Very nice indeed.  Has there been another "blind" comparison of harpsichord/clavichord  interpretations in the past? The knowledge in this group seems high. Although I listened to the pieces afterwards (as far as they are in my collection that means minus Duetschler, the old Van Asperen, etc.) I can imagine I would have made similar choices.   

premont

Quote from: Folia on August 17, 2013, 02:08:53 AM
I just found out about this item (and board). Very nice indeed.  Has there been another "blind" comparison of harpsichord/clavichord  interpretations in the past? The knowledge in this group seems high. Although I listened to the pieces afterwards (as far as they are in my collection that means minus Duetschler, the old Van Asperen, etc.) I can imagine I would have made similar choices.

No, but Discobole arranged a blind listening with BWV 733 (Magnificat fugue). I had planned a blind listening with BWV 562 (Fantasy c-minor), but didn´t realize it because of many other blind listenings with romantic and modern music going on at that time. It seems as if you have got a great and large  harpsichord discoteque, so have I. Maybe we could arrange something if you want.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Folia

Quote from: (: premont :) on August 17, 2013, 12:28:42 PM
No, but Discobole arranged a blind listening with BWV 733 (Magnificat fugue). I had planned a blind listening with BWV 562 (Fantasy c-minor), but didn´t realize it because of many other blind listenings with romantic and modern music going on at that time. It seems as if you have got a great and large  harpsichord discoteque, so have I. Maybe we could arrange something if you want.
I would enjoy that, although I am not that familiar with music for organ. My hpschd-collection is hugh indeed. I also love the less perfect recordings. As said in this group, like the organs, the instruments all have their own charasterics beside the individual interpretetion of the performers and recording technique used. The nice thing about blind listening is that prejudices are punished severely. I once was confronted with that while someone put some records from my collection in my own equipment to let me pick the instrumets used in the recordings.
I must say that I have seen Celine Frisch in Utrecht in 2010 with Rameau and F.Couperin and she played very impressive, although the solo recordings were always a bit bleak to me. Now I listened BWV 914 and it is with dash and class indeed but that can be highly influenced by the results here.

If you like to do the organ blind comparison I go back in line and I cannot help you with the repertoire, although I gladly will participate. Otherwise I would like to help with the hpschd-piece.Only in the last case I guess we have to make a soundfile (or better separate ones in a zip for a quick random comparison)) with all the pieces and make it available to participants? I was thinking of L'aimable by Pancrace Royer (although I only have ca. 5 performances, but it is one of my favorite pieces and with lots of opportunities of nice different phrasing), the fantasia chromatica by Sweelinck (plenty of material!), the passacaglia by F Couperin, Frobergers tombeau of Blancrocher or BWV847 (especially the fugue). I better stop because there is plenty of material to choose.  Now, I better get in line again.