Mahler 6 Blind Comparison: Impressions and Votes

[alkan]

Thanks .... links received. 
Best wishes .... Alkan

[nico1616]

I will send you the links now, it's not too late to join! The voting deadline is in around 10 days, but that can be extended.

If it is still possible, I would also like to join in. The 6th is becoming one of my favorites 

[madaboutmahler]

If it is still possible, I would also like to join in. The 6th is becoming one of my favorites 

I am very glad that you want to take part, Nico, and that the 6th is becoming a favourite of yours! Shall send the links now.


REMINDER:
The deadline is the 21st. Is everyone going to get their votes in by then? Who thinks that they will need longer? Please let me know!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

So, it's the 21st now? Then I think I can make it. For one reason or another, I have been far more busy than I could foresee when I blithely joined this very enjoyable game...

[madaboutmahler]

So, it's the 21st now? Then I think I can make it. For one reason or another, I have been far more busy than I could foresee when I blithely joined this very enjoyable game...

Yes, the deadline is the 21st, Johan. Glad to hear that you should be able to make it, very excited to see your vote! The voting deadline is likely to be extended anyway, unless everyone manages to get their votes in the next 4 days! 

[alkan]

Before submitting my vote I would like to put it into context.    I did not participate in the earlier rounds of the blind-test and I not I do not pretend to be an authority on Mahler or this symphony .... the following comments are simply my personal reaction to the music that I hear.

For me, the finale of the 6th is a heroic conflict that eventually ends tragically.   If you are not exhausted by the end there is something wrong with either the interpretation or yourself (listening to 5 versions over a few days is tough)!      So, the music needs to played with a maximum of emotion all the time.   All excesses that do not distort or disfigure the music are permitted.   What is forbidden is lack of engagement, weakness, detachment, routine playing, etc ...     I prepare myself for a roller coaster ride, and if I don't get one then I will have a poor opinion of the interpretation.

I divide the finale into three main sections as follows:

(a)   Introduction : It seems like awakening from a trance into a kind of nightmare.  The drumbeat is important and should dominate ... it's the enemy and it's fearsome.   The music sets the scene for what the hero is up against.   It's a preview of what's to come, but done in a brooding, menacing way.   The whole atmosphere should be phantasmagoric, nightmarish, and unreal.  Nevertheless, the hero girds his loins with a couple of valiant and defiant climaxes and picks up his sword ....

(b)   Combat :  This is the heart of the finale and is split into three sections of struggle separated by two sections of convalescence/recovery.     For me, the transition from the introduction to the first fight is a key moment, and I have never really heard it played the way I want it!    After a heroic climax dies down, there is a kind of "taunt" from the cellos and basses ... it's menacing, arrogant and it also signals "seconds out" (as in a boxing match).   The hero's reply should be immediate, instinctive and bold.     Very often this is played too softly or too weakly, or as a lead-in to the drama.   Noooo!   The hero jumps into the ring and starts sparring!      The fight music is brutal and savage and should be played accordingly.   It's all short phrases, blow and counter-blow, no development, no direction, ... just pounding away relentlessly.    After a hammer-blow and further struggles, the hero staggers away and it's back to square one (the harps and dream music that open the finale).  There is a period of convalescence before the nightmare returns.   I am reminded of Terry Gilliam's wonderful film "Brazil" where the hero retires into his dreams to protect himself from the horrors of the real world.    The second "convalescence" sequence is the longest, and having lost the first couple of battles the hero seems to be preparing himself for the final showdown.    Everything appears to be going well and the music builds power and momentum until there is a fatal dissonance from the woodwind which is immediately seized upon by the "fate" drumbeat.   I find this to have more impact than the well-known "hammer blows" ... it feels like a stab in the back.    After that, the final struggle is bitter, long, painful and merciless, but above all there is a desperate feeling that it is a lost cause.   The final blow comes more as a relief than a shock ....     Whew, I'm exhausted just writing this, but I hope that it conveys something of what I'm looking for in my ideal performance. 

(c)   Funeral and final shock : The last section needs little description ... the hero is dead.   There is funeral music and intense mourning.   And then .....    well, I'm reminded of another film;   Brian de Palma's "Carrie".     The shocking ending where a girl stoops to place flowers on Carrie's grave.   There is sadness, tears, sweet music ....  and suddenly a hand bursts violently out of the earth to grip her wrist.      It's totally unexpected, appalling and heart-stopping.


I hope this gives you an idea of where I'm coming from.   It's more than music.  It's an emotional experience.

I regret to say that none of the 5 finales in the blind test displace my current favourites (who are Solti/CSO and Bernstein/VPO), although one comes close.     Solti is without peer in the central fight music and always leaves me reeling.   Although Bernstein is good here, he does let the tension slip a couple of times.   On the other hand, Bernstein is marvelous in the introduction and last section.    I have not (yet) heard other famous recordings from Karajan, Haitink, Abbado, MTT, etc.

So, finally, my vote, along with a few comments on each version.    I have put an overall ranking plus a mark (out of 10) for each of the three sections I described earlier.

5th place : B5
•   Introduction : 5/10.   The first climax sounded a bit low key ... perhaps an old recording.  Drum motif rather faint.    Rather deliberate and classical and lacking some of the fantasy atmosphere.   The climaxes were a little rushed and lost impact.
•   Combat : 6/10.   Transition was poor.   Too flat ... no dramatic impact.   Fight music was good but not great.   It drove forward, maintained tension and was generally powerful, but it sounded a little too "civilized" to me.  Not savage enough. The hammer blows were faint.   
•   Ending : 4/10.    The final shock was far too light and "matter of fact".   Very disappointing and would not frighten a fly.

4th place : A8
•   Introduction : 6/10.    A live performance with some coughs and background noise which detracts somewhat from the "nightmare atmosphere".   Fairly slow and controlled.   A very good but ultimately not memorable interpretation.   
•   Combat : 6/10.   Similar to A4, the transition is too "gentle" and the fight music starts slowly.   Unfortunately it continues this way for quite some time and to me it sounds a bit mannered and without tension.    The sharp edges are rounded.   However, things improved noticeably later on and the emotional level went up several notches.   The last fight sequence is powerful but the climax is disappointingly un-cataclysmic.
•   Ending : 6/10. Atmospheric and powerful, but again the magic is diminished by audience coughs.

3rd place : A4
•   Introduction : 7/10.     Very good.   Excellent balance, drum beats clear and dominant and generally very intense and controlled, but missing a bit of fantasy atmosphere.  Great build up to the final climax before the transition.  My guess is that this is Boulez. 
•   Combat : 7/10.     It starts badly with a low-key transition (no drama, no emotion) and a slow start to the fight music.   But then the intensity is wound up notch by notch and what follows is splendid.   Excellent playing, everything clear, balanced and in place.  The climaxes are exciting and powerful.   But it just lacks a bit of emotion and hysteria.   Hammer blows are faint.
•   Ending : 7/10.    On the same level as the rest.   Impressive, but a tiny bit too classical for my taste.   

2nd place : C1
•   Introduction : 8/10.    Excellent.   A bit slow and deliberate, but tense, atmospheric and concentrated.  The fantasy/dream aspect was superb.   Didn't like slight accelerando into the climaxes (artificial).   A great start to the finale ...
•   Combat 7/10 : Transition was not bad, better than the other versions but not perfect (lacking a last ounce of aggression).   The fight music was powerfully played and well recorded but I found that it sometimes sounded a little too deliberate and lacked some bite and savagery.    The tension fell from time to time and some passages lacked punch.    The second section of fight music (containing the "whipped music") started well with a tremendous build-up of tension, but at the climax (where the music reaches breaking point) there was a horrible rallentando .... awful !    All the tension was destroyed and the following section (with the tapping stick) was frankly boring.   The conductor was eventually obliged to speed things up again later.  The final fight section was powerful, but again there were artificial slow-downs/speed-ups that I did not like.   I think that this music should be relentless and the best recordings are when the conductor chooses a tempo and sticks implacably to it.    Apart from the aforementioned flaws, the rest had a definite impact.   
•   Ending : 7/10.  Atmospheric and well handled.   

1st place : A7
•   Introduction : 8/10.   Slow, but gripping!   Wonderful intensity and atmosphere.   There were some incredible orchestral effects and the recording was excellent (very clear and transparent).    An almighty final climax that was awe-inspiring, but which had the side effect of putting the transition and start of the fight music in the shade a bit.    Marred by the willful distortion of the drumbeat rhythm which I just could not get used to.   I don't see what was gained by playing it this way ....    But all the rest was so good I give it a high mark.
•   Combat : 8/10.    This was interesting.   A very slow, deliberate tempo was maintained, but with tremendous concentration and tension.    As a result, the "fight" was a bit different ... it was less violent but more relentless and nagging ... difficult to put into words, but rather like fighting an octopus instead of a tiger.   It's not what I am used to, but it was gripping, bizarre and it really worked for me.   The brass section in the build up to the "whipped music" was unbelievable.     The woodwind in the final fight section was absolutely screaming.  The agonizing  wind-up to the final cataclysm was devastating ...    Unconventional but a truly great interpretation.    My guess is Barbirolli.
•   Ending : 7/10.     Worthy of being the sound-track to "Carrie" (see section (c) of my intro above), but unfortunately marred by the odd drum motif.


Thanks to madaboutmahler for organizing this.  I'm going to lie down and have a rest now.....

[madaboutmahler]

Great post, thank you for posting all your thoughts! Very interesting to read! Solti is also my favourite 6th at the moment, Bernstein DG too, both brilliant performances. Was happy with most that made it to the final though!
My pleasure! Yes, have a rest now!

[nico1616]

Very difficult to rate, but one version popped out, two were not my taste and two were very good.
I also participated only in this last round. But it is already difficult to compare 5 versions, let alone 24 ...

5th place: A8
A live performance in poor sound, not transparant at all. I particularly did not like the sound of the strings in all sections, and the woodwinds in the andante.
The finale was a little too bombastic for me
Overall you get a muddy effect in which the quality of Mahler's orchestration is not at all highlighted.

4the place: A4
Here the orchestration is very transparant and in the 2nd and 4th movement, quite an original approach. But the changes of tempo are often strange, even brutal.
What puts me off here is the andante, I do not hear the line, it is a little messy and does not move me at all.

3th place: B5
Nice colour of orchestra, I especially like the trumpets and horns. A decent overall middle of the road version, with an andante that not convinces me completely

2nd place: C1
Very clear structure and great sound. Tempos are on the fast side, but it works because the orchestra can handle it so well. Great energy.

1st place: A7
This one is magical from the beginning to the end. It has all the energy and tension you can imagine and is so original that I was baffled. The andante is just heartbreaking. It is not a version I own, because I had not yet heard Mahler's 6th in that way. You hear a conductor who groans and moans. An other user thinks this is Barbirolli and indeed, this groaning could be the same as in his legendary EMI Butterfly recording or in Elgar's cello concerto with du Pré.
I certainly will buy this one

Thank you Daniel for the pleasure of participating!
Nico

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you very much for your vote, Nico!

My pleasure, glad you enjoyed it!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Finally, I've got time! I'll be listening the coming hours...

[madaboutmahler]

Finally, I've got time! I'll be listening the coming hours...

Excellent, Johan! Hope you enjoy it, I look forward to seeing your vote!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Just listened to A4, the fragments of the first three movements, on YouTube. The same was not possible for the Finale, for copyright reasons, so I had to download it... (I haven't read the other contributions, so perhaps others have had the same problem...)

[mc ukrneal]

Just listened to A4, the fragments of the first three movements, on YouTube. The same was not possible for the Finale, for copyright reasons, so I had to download it... (I haven't read the other contributions, so perhaps others have had the same problem...)

Strange - the was the only one I had problems with too and had to download. The rest were fine for me if that helps.

[Sergeant Rock]

Yes, the deadline is the 21st, Johan. Glad to hear that you should be able to make it, very excited to see your vote! The voting deadline is likely to be extended anyway, unless everyone manages to get their votes in the next 4 days! 

I've been through the recordings once, but want to do it again before voting. I'll listen later this afternoon and evening. Don't announce an extention yet! If you do, I'll just continue to procrastinate    But you know, I don't think my vote is going to count anyway. It looks like we have a winner already....and I ain't happy about it!     

Sarge

[madaboutmahler]

I've been through the recordings once, but want to do it again before voting. I'll listen later this afternoon and evening. Don't announce an extention yet! If you do, I'll just continue to procrastinate    But you know, I don't think my vote is going to count anyway. It looks like we have a winner already....and I ain't happy about it!     

Sarge

Good to hear this, Sarge! Ok, no extension yet. I'll wait and see how many more votes we get this evening. haha - there are still quite a few more votes to be recieved so it's still possible for a massive change. The top two are very close at the moment, so who knows what could happen?! Very excited to see your vote!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Okay, I have listened. As time was and is a bit tight, don't expect detailed analysis. What I can say is - the Finale is the make-or-break movement for me. It's among the best things Mahler ever did. What I look for is inexorability. It is a long movement, so the conductor must know how to pace it. I have often noticed how things can start sagging during the recapitulation, the transition to which is, perhaps, my single favourite moment in the whole of the Mahlerian canon. If a performance manages that part of the movement well, I am sold. My ranking, therefore, is as follows:


A8 - C1 - B5 - A7 - A4


All the orchestras play magnificently, though recording quality varies. I love A8 because it is very exciting, live, and risks all, yet remains precise. It is a recording I'd take with me to a desert island. All the others have their own superb moments. But all-in-all - A8.

[Sergeant Rock]

No contest. C1 could do no wrong. Best sound. Paced the way I'd conduct it in all the movements (fast 1st, broad 4th), the rhythmic distortions idiomatic, great cowbell, and the most impressive hammerblows of the five

We all know who A7 is, and I can't say the knowledge didn't color my judgment. I rated the Scherzo highly in a previous round, and I do love that movement but I was never happy with the first movement which I think completely distorts Mahler's intentions (dude, Allegro energico!). Sure, there should be a hint of the future tragedy but when it starts with the very first bars...no, I can't accept that (in a comparison contest anyway...heard on its own, I like its individuality but prefer Chailly at this grim pace). I also can't stand the cowbells in the first movement; it sounds as if bovines are drowning in an Alpine lake.

A4 I quite like in most respects. I think this is Boulez (I haven't checked). But where are the hammerblows? Serious omission.

A8, my runner-up, not the best sound but a magnificent performance. But the audience noise bothered me enough to demote it.

1 - C1

2 - A8

3 - A4

4 - B5

5 - A7

Sarge

[nico1616]

A4 I quite like in most respects. I think this is Boulez (I haven't checked).

Sarge

That would make sense, I have the Boulez and never liked it

[Sergeant Rock]

That would make sense, I have the Boulez and never liked it

I have it too and, strangely enough, I've never liked it either    Maybe this is the breakthrough, when I finally come to appreciate it. I have to say though that none of the finalists, save C1, would enter my favorites list. My favorites have long ago bitten the dust in this comparison.

Sarge 

[nico1616]

I have it too and, strangely enough, I've never liked it either    Maybe this is the breakthrough, when I finally come to appreciate it. I have to say though that none of the finalists, save C1, would enter my favorites list. My favorites have long ago bitten the dust in this comparison.

Sarge

I did not even know that Barbirolli recorded the 6th in the studio, so for me this thread is a revelation - if the humming conductor is Barbirolli...