Mahler 6 Blind Comparison: Impressions and Votes

[Karl Henning]

I love this sort of thing, you know.

[Sergeant Rock]

I love this sort of thing, you know.

You should have joined us, Karl. As a non-Mahler-fan, free of performance expectations, I imagine your fresh ears would have given us some interesting comments.

Sarge

[zauberflöte]

Difficult for me to imagine anyone displacing Klemperer in the 2nd

Forgot about the Klemperer. Yes, that should do very well but it will have to get past the first round. Klemperer's first movement is nothing special, but that's the only movement that isn't.

[Sergeant Rock]

Forgot about the Klemperer. Yes, that should do very well but it will have to get past the first round.

Which makes me think: if Daniel had started with the last movement of the Sixth and preceded backwards, I wonder if the results would have been considerably different. I suspect so.

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

Blind hearings would surely show [Boulez] ranked as surprisingly emotive!

Jens has the gift. He's prescient! I'd always dismissed Boulez's Sixth as cold, unfeeling, but listening blind I came to appreciate the emotional depths are there. Fascinating.

I don't know if Jens is prescient, but he has ears and good judgment and uses both -- as do you, my friend. Even though our tastes diverge more than his and mine, I respect your experience and thoughtfulness as much as his. And because of your patient advocacy, you have broadened my listening experience and helped me to appreciate things I once rejected as contrary to my preferences -- the late Lenny's Sibelius, for instance.

Listening blind to these excerpts of the 6th and making no effort to figure out who was who (though I could hardly avoid suspecting Barbirolli!), I ranked Boulez lowest of the five because I thought he pumped up the blaring emotionalism unnecessarily.  When I listened to the full work later, I didn't feel the same, however, as the tone was set in his rock-solid and perfectly judged opening march, establishing a visceral intensity that informed the later BIGNESS as intrinsic and not a grafted-on interpretive excess.

On the other hand, I listened to Tennstedt yesterday after learning his identity and thought his whole much less than the sum of the parts -- too big from the get go, the whole thing oddly disjointed -- according to MY tastes. Over the years I've learned that you usually prefer more overtly "emotional" and "big" interpretations than I, but otherwise our judgment is similar, so I've learned to trust and value your opinions -- unlike some critics who are all over the map and inconsistent from one day to the next, like the Hurwitzer or Amazon's "Santa Fe Listener," who often dismiss really great recordings out of sheer prejudice and perversity, it seems, but who nonetheless sometimes get it mystifyingly right!

(I also listened to the complete Pappano 6th and found it pretty but underwhelming. As Gertrude Stein famously said of her hometown, Oakland, "There is no there there.")

BTW, we're up to it again on the Nielsen thread!

[DavidRoss]

Which makes me think: if Daniel had started with the last movement of the Sixth and preceded backwards, I wonder if the results would have been considerably different. I suspect so.

No doubt. Or selected other excerpts. Or grouped the recordings differently. Or had a larger sample than 10-14 self-selected participants.

For me the point was not in trying to find a "winner," but in having the opportunity to listen blind, letting me check my own prejudices at the door. I've yet to give Bertini's complete 6th a go, but will soon, as my strong liking for it among the final group was quite an eye-opener for me.

[mjwal]

I missed the beginning of this and then was down with various bugs, so couldn't take part. It's fascinating to read all these reactions as an outsider. I'm very pleased with the general approval of Barbirolli, Boulez and Mitropoulos here. A pity the recently issued Dorati wasn't considered. This hit me like an LSD trip.

[eyeresist]

I'm also surprised by the Tennstedt, my number one choice. I had always been underwhelmed by previous interpretations of his. Guess I listened to the wrong  pieces. ...
There are only two Mahler symphonies that don't make me do cartwheels, the 8th and the 7th. I have the highly recommended balls-of-fire Solti 8th. Will I feel the need to get another? The 7th, I must admit, I've never even listened to all the way through. It does nothing for me.

Speaking of wrong pieces...  I recommend hearing Tennstedt's studio 7th, for me the high point of his cycle. Everyone else sounds too hardbitten and superficial for me now.
For 8 there are certainly better options - most of which I haven't actually heard! But I believe Sinopoli and Nagano have both made great recordings. My choice is Bertini, for depth and coherence as well as magnificence.



Wait, what, Dorati recorded the 6th??

[DavidRoss]

Everyone else sounds too hardbitten and superficial for me now.

Who is "everyone else?"

[eyeresist]

Who is "everyone else?"

Let's see: Bernstein (Sony), Bertini, Rattle, Masur. Offhand, I think those are the only ones in my collection, though I've listened to samples of others. I haven't heard Solti but would be very surprised if he didn't match this description, from what I know of his work elsewhere.

There was also a BBC Music coverdisc performance conducted by Noseda which was pretty good (excellent live sound), but in the end didn't quite scale the heights.

In his survey of recordings of the symphony, Tony Duggan suggests a flavour of (among other things) Wagner's Meistersinger overture in the finale, and interestingly says: "In early performances Mahler actually preceded the symphony with the Overture, perhaps as a kind of balance with the last movement. Try playing Wagner's overture and then Mahler's symphony and see how the Wagner sets up what you are going to be aiming at by the time Mahler's work ends. A fact Mahler surely meant us to understand."

[Sergeant Rock]

I haven't heard Solti but would be very surprised if he didn't match this description, from what I know of his work elsewhere.

Yeah, you need to strap yourself in before hitting the play button   It's a thrilling ride but where subtlety is called for, it seems to elude him. Still, one of my favorite Sevenths.

Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

A very interesting result. What I learned or have been thinking about:
1. The 6th is a more interesting piece than I thought. I will enjoy it more in future. Well worth the experience just for this!
2. I am...different. In my opinion, bombastic and bad should almost never be used in the same sentence and certainly never with Mahler. I don't understand these comments from some who commented about it (meaning Mahler+bombastic=good Mahler). Perhaps we don't quite mean the same thing?
3. When we listen to multiple versions, I wonder if we are missing something. The reason I mention it is that a good middle of the road performance may seem 'boring' compared to more extreme versions. It is something I will be thinking about in future comparisons. In other words, is just being different an advantage in this type of exercise?
4. Conductors may be more consistent in their approach to classical music than I originally thought. Having said that, there are exceptions. I have too small a sample size to draw a fair conclusion, but it's another theme I will be thinking about.
5. It is hard to include older recordings and give them a fair shake. I almost never buy older recordings (pre-stereo) for new music, because I know there are usually similarly good recordings in good sound. But it is hard to pick such recordings in an exercise like this, because the sound changes the impact of the music. I wonder if a separate grouping for the older recordings would be beneficial? 

[jlaurson]

In his survey of recordings of the symphony, Tony Duggan suggests a flavour of (among other things) Wagner's Meistersinger overture in the finale, and interestingly says: "In early performances Mahler actually preceded the symphony with the Overture, perhaps as a kind of balance with the last movement. Try playing Wagner's overture and then Mahler's symphony and see how the Wagner sets up what you are going to be aiming at by the time Mahler's work ends. A fact Mahler surely meant us to understand."

"suggests a flavor"? It's pure C-major Meistersinger-finale (not overture) in the finale of the 7th. And first act finale Tristan. So much so (the Meistersinger-bit, which Mahler was of course one of the most admired conductors of, in his time) that many commentators think it's a straight send-up of Wagner... or in any case not possibly to be taken seriously.

Two of the conductors who bring this out most obviously are Klemperer (although I can't stand that ludicrously long finale) and Boulez.

[Sergeant Rock]

Over the years I've learned that you usually prefer more overtly "emotional" and "big" interpretations than I....

In a comparison like this, or for a desert island choice? yeah, I wouldn't disagree that my preferences would usually fit your description. However, the reason my collection is so large, the reason I have multiple versions of my favorite (and even not so favorite) music is because I want variety and enjoy hearing how different the same notes can sound when played by different teams and coachs. Bringing the discussion back to the topic here, my five favorite Sixths are very different beasts: Solti (pedal to the metal), Bernstein/DG (angst-ridden/over-the-top), Szell (Classical restraint), Karajan (deep beauty and emotion), Chailly (grim stoicism).

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Now, where did I put that Levine/BSO Mahler Sixth? . . .

[DavidRoss]

Now, where did I put that Levine/BSO Mahler Sixth? . . .

In the rubbish bin?

Just joshing, of course. It's not among the couple of dozen 6ths I have, nor do I recall having heard it. For all I know it's as good as many other unsung recordings (of course, there shouldn't be any singing in the 6th!).

1. The 6th is a more interesting piece than I thought. I will enjoy it more in future. Well worth the experience just for this!
2. I am...different. In my opinion, bombastic and bad should almost never be used in the same sentence and certainly never with Mahler. I don't understand these comments from some who commented about it (meaning Mahler+bombastic=good Mahler). Perhaps we don't quite mean the same thing?
3. When we listen to multiple versions, I wonder if we are missing something. The reason I mention it is that a good middle of the road performance may seem 'boring' compared to more extreme versions. It is something I will be thinking about in future comparisons. In other words, is just being different an advantage in this type of exercise?
4. Conductors may be more consistent in their approach to classical music than I originally thought. Having said that, there are exceptions. I have too small a sample size to draw a fair conclusion, but it's another theme I will be thinking about.
5. It is hard to include older recordings and give them a fair shake. I almost never buy older recordings (pre-stereo) for new music, because I know there are usually similarly good recordings in good sound. But it is hard to pick such recordings in an exercise like this, because the sound changes the impact of the music. I wonder if a separate grouping for the older recordings would be beneficial? 

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing them.
1. Yay!
2. Thanks, Neal! You gave me reason to look it up and I just discovered that I've been using the word wrongly for years, thinking it meant "excessively emphatic or theatrical," not "pompous or pretentious." So where I have used the word "bombastic," substitute "over-dramatized and emphatic."
3. Seems likely.
4. I think most conductors are pretty consistent, although the best take the composer's predilections and the period's conventions into account when preparing for a performance. The best conductors change their approach over time as they grow and learn more -- not just about the composers and the works, but from their own life experience. Look at Lenny's changing approach to Mahler over time, for instance.
5. I agree -- unless the pool of reviewers is biased toward "golden age" recordings, as some folks are. I own very few pre-'50s recordings, partly because of recording quality, but also because I very seldom hear one of those fabled recordings from the '30s or '40s that holds up against the better performances of the past 60 years. Others' mileage varies, of course. ;^)

[jlaurson]

Jens has the gift. He's prescient! I'd always dismissed Boulez's Sixth as cold, unfeeling, but listening blind I came to appreciate the emotional depths are there. Fascinating.

I don't know if Jens is prescient, but he has ears and good judgment and uses both ...

Awww. Where is the blush-smiley when you need it.

I can't deny that there's a sense of gratification when blind-ish results among a wide variety of listeners comes up with results, and sometimes surprising results, that resemble in some ways what I hear -- and/or how I describe what I hear. Not because it's an "mhaw-mhwa, told-you-so" thing, but because there is an element in me that aspires hopes to achieve more than than just re-phrasing my own subjective opinion and emotional response to music... (despite knowing full well that so much of it is precisely that: a subjective response formed out of a listening-life-time of expectations, exposures, associations, but also day-to-day feelings and moods) ... something that scratches at the door of objectivity that is, if not true, so at least clear and 'true' enough that a whole host of very different 'ears' can see where I am coming from.

That's probably why we also listen to Sarge and a select few others on fora like these: It's not whether we end up having the same taste, but we can at least see why and what they like about a performance, and why it might be likable.

[jlaurson]

I've not participated (I just can't handle that much Mahler right now, and then I'd want to do whole symphonies, not bits from movements to do them justice), but it's inspired me to salvage the 2009 Mahler Survey from WETA to ionarts.

Working my way backwards through the 25 'episodes', I've now arrived at Symphony 8, PART 1 and PART 2. (And will have to do some formatting of the previously salvaged ones, to get a coherent look, update information, and fix graphics where links are broken.)

[Lilas Pastia]

Too bad I came to this thread only today, the musical examples are gone . I found the final results very interesting. Barbirolli's famed EMI recording has been with me for almost 40 years and I would certainly have recognized it from the get go. But I certainly would have been fooled with most of the others !

I suggest everyone who liked the Barbirolli to give a try to the LSO Farberman recording. Superbly played and gorgeously recorded, his rythms are even slower than Barbirolli's, and the sound picture is more cushioned too, giving the work a very gloomy cast indeed. Where Barbirolli sounds passionate and elevated, Farberman sounds dejected and downcast. Not for the faint of heart, although I've read some quite unkind comments. This is a work that provokes very strong feelings !

[DavidRoss]

Happily, the 6th is such a great work and I enjoy it so much that I've been able to listen to it once a day or so recently without burnout. In the past few days I've listened to one recording that did not fare well among the listeners sampled (Rattle/CBSO) as well as two more of Tony Duggan's faves* that weren't included: Herbig and the OOP Thomas Sanderling. (Other Duggan faves left out included Gielen, Levi, Jansons, MTT, & Zander.)

Herbig is quite good and different from the norm. It's fast but focused, not frantic. There's no wallowing in sentimentality. His approach is similar to what people who haven't listened to Boulez might expect from the stereotype -- but without the iciness. I like the first three movements but the fourth falls a bit short in power/intensity for my tastes -- here the orchestra sounds a bit thin and underweighted (but the hammer thwacks are great!).

Sanderling offers a solid middle-of-the-road first movement, neither fast nor slow, lacking a bit in propulsive inevitability as well as the wistful beauty in the Alma theme, but compensating with a well-judged pastoral interlude. The scherzo is a bit too martial and driven -- crisp? -- to be properly unsettled and vaguely spooky, but the andante is lovely and gentle, more on the hopeful side rather than wistful, and played straight, respectful of composer and audience instead of mucking it up with schmaltz. Unlike Herbig's last movement, Sanderling is appropriately big and weighty, with requisite gravitas and building intensity. Overall a very solid performance with a very neutral, almost characterless approach that would make it a solid choice at the original budget price, but hardly worth the inflated prices sought on the second-hand market.

Rattle -- more expansive tempi and overt emotionality than either, not as satisfying as MTT's lingering over beauties, but not wallowing in sentimentality like some others, either. Perfectly judged thrust of 1st mvmt march --portentous, implacable ... big, brassy, and bold, but honest, unfolding from within, not forced. Alma's lovely, fairy-tale-like, dreamy ... but the pastoral interlude is soporific -- it's amazing how Rattie can get so much so right in this movement yet also get so much so wrong! Placing the andante second is the better choice, I think, but Rattie's a bit too slow and unfocused here, too. It gets wonderfully big and beautiful but pretty over-the-top -- if you like that sort of thing -- and if you can stay awake long enough to enjoy it. The scherzo's a bit heavy-handed, too, but does have a nice ominous underpinning, unfortunately it's more clodhopperish than spooky. The last movement returns to the strength and gravity so successful in the first, with big sound and well-judged tempos and forward thrust, yet verging on ponderous at times and suffering the same weakness as the first, too. I listened to this recording twice in the past few days, and on second hearing liked it a lot less than the first time through.


*FYI, Duggan's M6 survey is here: http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/Mahler6.htm