Mahler 6 Blind Comparison: Impressions and Votes

Started by madaboutmahler, April 12, 2012, 03:33:12 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

madaboutmahler

And here are the results!!!! :D

I know you wished to see the points as well, so I have displayed them. As there were 10 votes, they are out of 50. 50 being the highest!

5th Place: A4 Vienna Philharmonic/Pierre Boulez (DG/1995)
Starting off as an average contender, this recording did particularly well in the second round, when people particularly enjoyed how 'classical' the performance was. However, many people did not like Boulez's way with the finale at all, calling it 'overly bombastic'. Half the voters placed this last in the votings. This recording recieved 20 points.
[asin]B000001GOZ[/asin]

4th Place: B5 Cologne Radio Orchestra/Gary Bertini (EMI/1984)
This recording started off being extremely popular, gaining 90% of it's possible votes in the first round, and keeping a very high mark in the second. Many praised the superb control of the excellent orchestral playing. However, it was not liked nearly as much in the final, being criticised as undistinctive, one even said they hated the recording! The performance still did have supporters though! This recording recieved 24 points.
[asin]B000BQ7BX2[/asin]

3th Place: A8 Orchestra dell'Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia/Antonio Pappano (EMI/2011)
The most recent Mahler 6 was loved very much in all parts of the comparison, coming second place (after the Bertini) in the first round and recieving many first place votes throughout. This recording consistently recieved praise for Pappano's superb control of his outstanding orchestra, and the energy and beauty of the performance. A slight surprise perhaps? Myself, I am glad it did this well! This recording recieved 33 points.
[asin]B005MLQF06[/asin]

2nd Place: C1 London Philharmonic Orchestra/Klaus Tennstedt (EMI/1983)
Many loved the energy and urgency in this performance, and eventually, it was extremely close between this and the winner, in the final vote, there was only one point between them! This recording recieved 36 points.
[asin]B00000C2KM[/asin]

1st Place: A7 New Philharmonia Orchestra/Sir John Barbirolli (EMI/1967)
This classic recording was much loved through the entire comparison. Almost everyone adored the intensity, power, tragedy and passion in the performance. This recording recieved 37 points.
[asin]B001BBZ994[/asin]


So, what do you all think of the results? Surprised?

Thank you all very much for taking part, it has been an absolute pleasure doing this for you all! Hope you have enjoyed it! :)

Hope you will be able to take part in the next Mahler comparison which will be starting just before August I would imagine. If you feel like some more Blind Comparison fun before, please feel free to sign up for my 'Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra' comparison which will be starting during this week.

:)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

alkan

The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

J.Z. Herrenberg

Many thanks, Daniel!  :)  I knew the Barbirolli and the Boulez. Pappano and Tennstedt are big surprises for me. It's clear I ought to own those...
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Lisztianwagner

#243
Wow, what very interesting results! :o So my favourite of the final group is the Tennstedt! :o A great recording, it received positive comments from me during the whole comparison. Both the Bertini and the Pappano surprised me, I've never listened to those versions before,  but I enjoyed them. The Barbirolli has won....well, that's an excellent performance, no doubt. :)

Thank you so much for this Blind Comparison, Daniel, I'm looking forward to attending the next one! ;)
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

trung224

 Thanks, Daniel! I'm not surrised about this result. The Tennstedt's and the Barbirolli's is very tragic, powerful and deserved their place. But I strongly recommend the live performance by Tennstedt in LPO label.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/aug09/Mahler6_%20Tennstedt_lpo0038.htm
  Recorded in the same time with the studio recording, the concept of interpretation is similar but the playing is more involved. I have owned it and this is truly the most powerful and tragic performance of Mahler 6 I've heard.

alkan

Very interesting.   The top two were the most individualistic and atypical interpretations where Mahler's symphony was marked (distorted?) by the strong personality of the conductor.    In most other classical works this can be dangerous, but I think that it can work very well in Mahler's 6th.     

I have the Boulez version, and I listen to it when I don't feel up to a high emotional involvement.    It allows you to understand a bit better Mahler's very complex music without getting carried away and overwhelmed.

It's a pity that the usual suspects (Bernstein, Solti) didn't make it to the finale (which is the only part I participated in).           

The first version of this symphony that I heard was Haitink/Concertgebouw and I still like it very much.   Has anyone heard the later Haintink with the BSO?    If so, your comments would be very welcome.

Many thanks to madabout, and I hope you pass your GCSE's after all this ..... ;)
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

alkan

What's the next Mahler symphony for a blind test ?
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

madaboutmahler

My pleasure, it really has been a joy organizing this comparison! Listening to around 30 different performances of the Alma Theme was a good start... ;) What a wonderful mood that got me in! :)

Thank you for your comments on the results by the way! :)

Quote from: alkan on June 27, 2012, 10:42:07 AM
What's the next Mahler symphony for a blind test ?

The next Mahler symphony for comparison will be the 1st symphony, the comparison starting in around a month, after the 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' comparison I am doing in between. You are more than welcome to join in with that one too if you want! :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

alkan

Quote from: madaboutmahler on June 27, 2012, 10:50:58 AM
The next Mahler symphony for comparison will be the 1st symphony, the comparison starting in around a month, after the 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' comparison I am doing in between. You are more than welcome to join in with that one too if you want! :)

Any cowbells in either of these two ?    ;D
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

madaboutmahler

Quote from: alkan on June 27, 2012, 10:53:16 AM
Any cowbells in either of these two ?    ;D

I'm afraid not! ;) The percussion in both is very impressive though anyway! :D

Here's the link for the Strauss if you or anyone who has not signed up yet are interested!
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20657.0.html

This comparison will be starting within the next week. :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

classicalgeek

Fascinating result!  The Barbirolli wasn't at the top of my list, but I thought it was solid if not spectacular.  Not surprised I liked the Bertini throughout (his cycle is my favorite top-to-bottom Mahler set) or Tennstedt.  Pappano intrigues me as well - I will see if that one's in my collection, if not, I might have to add it :)
So much great music, so little time...

Original compositions and orchestrations: https://www.youtube.com/@jmbrannigan

DavidRoss

#251
Thanks, Daniel!

Here's a listing of the recordings included and how they fared in the test:

1.   Barbirolli/New Philharmonia Orchestra
2.   Tennstedt/London Philharmonic Orchestra
3.   Pappano/National Orchestra of Saint Cecilia
4.   Bertini/Köln Radio Orchestra
5.   Boulez/Vienna Philharmonic
6.   Sinopoli/Philharmonia Orchestra
7.   Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic
8.   Solti/CSO
9.   Rattle/BP
10.   Abbado/BP
11.   Maazel/WP
12.   Chailly/RCO
13.   Bernstein/NYPO
14.   Mitropoulos/WDRO
15.   Segerstam/DNRSO
16.   Inbal/Frankfurt RSO
17.   Neumann/Czech Philharmonic
18.   Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle
19.   Rattle/CBSO
20.   Bernstein/WP
21.   Szell/Cleveland
22.   Gergiev/LSO
23.   Kubelik/BRSO (DGG)
24.   Horenstein/Bournemouth

I participated in only the last round featuring the top five. The big surprise for me was how much I liked the Bertini excerpts, at least in comparison with the other samples. Also surprising was that I placed Boulez last among these five, and chiefly because of the bombastic drive that I thought excessive. This recording is one of my favorite 6ths and so after seeing from my notes how poorly it fared (with the caveat that the competition was generally quite good, having survived two previous cuts), I listened to the complete symphony recording. And I liked it very much -- which shows the difference between needle-dropping, checking A's bits against B's and C's bits, and listening to the work as a whole with all those bits contextualized in the complete conceptual framework offered by the conductor.

I've yet to give Bertini another complete hearing to see whether the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but my liking for its parts suggests that such a hearing is overdue!

That Barbirolli topped my list for these five is no surprise, for it's one of my very favorites and the other contenders for that rank were excluded, though Sinopoli's 6th just missed making the final five. Several other top faves -- Gielen, MTT, Fischer -- were excluded altogether, as were two recent acquisitions that I liked very much at first and which only time will tell if I continue liking so much: Eschenbach/PO and Haitink/CSO. I also think that if Lenny's WP 6th had survived the early rounds, it would have been a strong contender in the final for much the same reason that Barbirolli's "won."

Two final takeaways: I'll want to give Pappano's 6th a fair hearing (thanks, Mog!) and I need to hear Tennstedt's Mahler again. I did not recognize either of these and it's no wonder, since I had never heard the Pappano and I don't generally respond favorably to Tennstedt, feeling that he often over-dramatizes and misses the subtleties of Mahler's music. Sure, there are some wonderful moments, but I've never liked his overall approach nearly as well as a dozen or more others.

Again, thanks for putting this together, Daniel, and inviting us to play along!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

jlaurson


Thanks, Daniel!

Here's a listing of the recordings included and how they fared in the test:

My non-blind comments from 2009 -- several choices here were not included, since they were either not recorded yet, or not available outside a box set, or not re-issued at all. Or because I didn't care for them in the least, or didn't own them.

1.   Barbirolli/New Philharmonia Orchestra
QuoteLike a possessed Bulldog, drooling over the orchestra, Sir John Barbirolli drives the New Philharmonia to a performance somewhat the polar opposite of other Barbirolli Mahler-recordings. The sound quality is not the best (but has been improved significantly for all subsequent re-issues on CD, starting with the double forte edition) and you can hear Barbirolli grunt, huff, and puff—but that all sounds appropriate, as does the less-than-perfect playing of the orchestra. It is wild-eyed, relentless; its teeth are showing. The first movement drags cruelly but appropriately to these ears, because the attacks are sharp and on the toes, not the heal. The repeat is skipped.

This recording has thankfully been re-issued again—now with Barbirolli's preferred, original movement order, with the Andante first. (On previous issues, the engineers had other ideas and placed the Scherzo first, in accordance with the critical Mahler Edition's suggestions at the time. It works to riveting effect, which somewhat excuses their interference with the maestro's wishes.)

5.   Boulez/Vienna Philharmonic
QuoteBoulez (DG) has a very strong Sixth to offer—and while it is not quite as no-holds-barred rough and raw as Bernstein, Mitropoulos, or Barbirolli (the Vienna Philharmonic plays far too beautifully for that), he might still be considered to fall down on the 'brutal' side. It's a tremendous recording and would probably—despite the polarizing effect the name "Boulez" has on Mahlerites or music fans in general—be the least controversial first choice for the Sixth. (To eradicate the "cold" stereotype that so disturbs sensible discussion of Boulez' conducting: clear and clean he is always and 'analytical' often; but a sense of detachment only appears in his Mahler Third and Seventh. Blind hearings would surely show him ranked as surprisingly emotive!)

7.   Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic
QuoteKarajan's DG recording of the Sixth is his third-to-last Mahler recording and, along with the second Ninth, his best. Mahler was a composer to whom Karajan found only late in life... and 'the later, the better' fully applies to his Mahler recordings (the two to follow were the special accounts of the Ninth) and this one could be in a category of its own. The approach to 'sound' that he drilled into the Berlin Philharmonic, the insistence on absolute perfection (at least whenever in the recording studio), that polish, that well-oiled machine... it all works towards a truly spectacular Mahler experience. Surely on the clean side of the raw-genteel divide, it is probably the most propulsive of the "drool-free" versions. It is a little short on any particular Mahler-flavor but it more than makes up for that with its numerous other qualities.

9.   Rattle/BP
[What's this? A radio broadcast?]

10.   Abbado/BP
QuoteClaudio Abbado's most recent recording with the Berlin Philharmonic has been hyped, hailed, and awarded. The Gramophone and The Financial Times both raved about it. It wasn't much to my liking when I reviewed it and it isn't now. It's good and excellently played and it's mild and gentle, genteel and polished—and unfortunately also quite listless, if not comatose.

13.   Bernstein/NYPO
[Insinuated as preferred over several other versions incl. the Vienna one, but not specifically recommended]

14.   Mitropoulos/WDRO
[See below]

19.   Rattle/CBSO
QuoteAs it turns out, I enjoy Simon Rattle's recording (EMI), nearly as broad but zanier, a good deal more than Tilson Thomas' or Haitink's most recent one. It is among those Mahler recordings of Rattle that are under-, rather than over-rated, and it could fit either in either category of the two approaches between which I distinguish: either on the lenient side of brutal or on the bleak side of moderateness. Sonics are not its strong suit, but for three movements it competes with the best.

21.   Szell/Cleveland
QuoteIt was with great anticipation that I listened to the brisk live recording (73 minutes; an 18 minute Allegro) of George Szell's with the Cleveland Orchestra (Sony). But the sound is muffled, the interpretation tame, the execution without heft, and everything feels a bit middle-of-the-road.

22.   Gergiev/LSO
QuoteYou'd think that the one Symphony that should be most suited to Valery Gergiev would be the Sixth: With a stubble, crumpled suit, dark, bloodshot eyes, the smell of liquor from the long night before still lingering, ruthless and wild and with unwashed, unkempt hair. (That's my ideal vision of the Sixth, not a description of Gergiev's appearance.) All the greater my surprise to hear Gergiev's Sixth—part of his Mahler Cycle with the LSO on their own label—to be a tame (if not quite emaciated) performance. Even if Gergiev had gone for Scherzo-Andante and three hammer blows, instead of the (now) standard Andante-Scherzo/Two, this would not qualify for inclusion among the raw, driven Sixths.

23.   Kubelik/BRSO (DGG)
[Liked the Audite version, without being too enthusiastic.]


- - - Too bad Fischer, Zander & Gielen were not part of this, indeed.

Mitrop:
QuoteBarbirolli and Bernstein's view of this symphony were very likely influenced by the greatest Mahlerian since Mengelberg and Walter, and by far the most exciting next to Bernstein: Dimitri Mitropoulos. Mitropoulos gave the first American performances of the Sixth (Andante/Scherzo) in 1947. A recording from 1955 (also Andante/Scherzo) with the New York forces is floating around (notably in the New York Philharmonic $200-plus luxury box set) and is said to be played better—but the live-recording with the WDR Sinfonieorchester Köln from 1959 (at time when "live" meant live!) is riveting, raw, individualistic (still shy of eccentric); truly an edge-of-the-seat reading. (Issued on the Mitropoulos set as part of EMI's prematurely aborted "Greatest Conductors of the 20th Century" edition, it is still available... while I'm not sure if I trust the sound on the Urania issue currently in print, given bad experience with that label.) That the orchestra struggles in several passages can be troubling—or alternatively seen as furthering that pushed-to-the-brink feeling. The order of the movements here is Scherzo/Andante and that's how it has been published in all its outings on CD... Mitropoulos curiously having changed the movement-order four years prior to the International Gustav Mahler Gesellschaft's critical edition suggesting the Scherzo be placed first. (Most likely Erwin Ratz, founder and editor of the IGMG, and the irrationally ardent supporter of the Scherzo-Andante order mentioned above, had convinced him to do so before a performance in Vienna in 1957.) The sound is admittedly rather limited for most of the first movement but it gets better from thereon... and the rest of the modest quality is adjusted for by the ears. Not a 'first' recommendation but a dedicated Mahler listener or any fan of the Sixth won't pass it up. This recording, unlike some other old and low-fi recordings I have criticized, is one where you definitely can hear and enjoy the interpretive choices.

madaboutmahler

Thank you all for posting your feedback, very interesting! And to David for posting the results list, and to Jens for posting  the comments from his blog. :)

Really glad that you enjoyed it so much! Hopefully you will enjoy the future comparisons as much!

Quote from: jlaurson on June 27, 2012, 12:51:26 PM
9.   Rattle/BP
[What's this? A radio broadcast?]

This is a recording that Julien (Discobole) recommended to me, on the Berliner Philharmoniker's own label. I believe it was Rattle's first ever concert with the orchestra. :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

eyeresist

I didn't take part, but thanks for letting me play the observer! Very interesting results....


Quote from: alkan on June 27, 2012, 10:27:16 AMThe top two were the most individualistic and atypical interpretations where Mahler's symphony was marked (distorted?) by the strong personality of the conductor.    In most other classical works this can be dangerous, but I think that it can work very well in Mahler's 6th.

I think the results are more a comment on the tastes of these particular voters than on the music as such ;)


Quote from: DavidRoss on June 27, 2012, 12:15:35 PM...I don't generally respond favorably to Tennstedt, feeling that he often over-dramatizes and misses the subtleties of Mahler's music.

That's how I feel about Tennstedt's 6th, but for me that was the low point of his cycle (along with 8 and perhaps 5), and I love his cycle overall. He gets a true "Mahler sound" from the LPO.

liuzerus87

Re Mitropoulos: Archipel released a copy of the 1955 Mahler 6 with the NYPO, on Amazon: [asin]B003A6X0JY[/asin]
It's also available for an MP3 download for just $6 on Amazon here [asin]B0045F9WWS[/asin]

I'm not sure if Archipel is a pirate label or whatever is up with this recording compared to the big NYPO set, but it seems legitimate to me.

As for hearing both this recording and his later 1960 with the WDR Koln, I have to say that I prefer the 1955 hands down. In comparison, the earlier recording is better played and much better put together. His drive in the finale never lags, leading to a fairly fast timing (28:37), but he does it while maintaining a good sense of musicality and drama, so there's never a sense of rushing over notes.

In Tony Duggan's survey of Mahler 6's on Musicweb, he has this to say about the NYPO performance:
Quote
I'll say straight away that, for me, this is the finest performance of the last movement I know. Mitropoulos keeps such a firm grip on the symphonic structure, such a single-minded concentration on pressing ahead, that the drama the movement delivers seems to hit us head on, rather like the blows of fate the hammer delivers. Note the passage 237-270 which, in more than any other version, recalls the corresponding passage in the first movement and so knits the symphony together across the movements. Then, soon after, the astonishing contribution of the trumpeters as the first hammer approaches with the latter a real blow of fate - heroic ambition emphatically stopped in its tracks. Then the "whipped" passage between the first two blows also has to be heard to be believed. So towering, so thrillingly conceived and delivered, with the orchestra playing like things possessed. Likewise in the final assault leading to the place where the third hammer blow used to be there is the same feeling as with Sanderling of the work's "hero" going for one final throw before utter disaster. We never hear anywhere near enough of that which is felled, that which the hero loses and Mitropoulos seems aware of that. As I have said before, how are we to appreciate the devastating nature of what fate delivers unless we appreciate what it is that will be lost ? A man "in full leaf and flower", as Alma described Mahler at this time, must be depicted in this movement. Right up until the last note the orchestra never flags. In a studio recording this would be remarkable enough but in a "live" performance this has to be one of the great public recordings of anything, up there with Furtwängler's Beethoven Ninth from 1942.

All in all, perhaps one of the finest recordings of the work in my opinion.

zauberflöte

That was immensely fun. I'm also surprised by the Tennstedt, my number one choice. I had always been underwhelmed by previous interpretations of his. Guess I listened to the wrong  pieces.
That being said, I'm probably still not going to run out and buy it. It didn't really come close to displacing the Bernstein VPO for me.
I probably will, however, track down the Solti based on what I heard and some of the comments here.
It makes me wonder how the other Mahler symphonies will do in our hands. I'm guessing Barbirolli's 2nd will do well. It's perfectly paced like his 6th was, though also, like the 6th, it's a little too well behaved. Lenny's DG version  has, for me, easily the best first movement I've ever heard. It should go far, even when it turns into molasses in the last movement. But will it top his earlier versions? And will Daniel use all three extant (that I know of) Bernstein performances anyway?
Will Horenstein's celebrated Third make it through our clutches? or Solti's Fifth? Will Karajan's live recording of the 9th, possibly my favorite recording of anything I own, survive to his incandescent last movement.
There are only two Mahler symphonies that don't make me do cartwheels, the 8th and the 7th. I have the highly recommended balls-of-fire Solti 8th. Will I feel the need to get another? The 7th, I must admit, I've never even listened to all the way through. It does nothing for me. This  kind of side-by-side comparison will make me pay attention and that can only be good.



     

alkan

Hello Zauberflote,

Difficult for me to imagine anyone displacing Klemperer in the 2nd, although I also have the Solti and I like it a lot.    I must listen to Lenny ....

Concerning the 7th, I really like Bernstein/VPO here, even more than his 6th.    It's a strange beast, but maybe the easiest way in is to listen to single movements every now and then.   I always find the finale a blast .... completely over the top and often grotesque, ..... but captivating.    It sounds to me like the overture to Meistersinger on drugs.    Listen carefully .... the rhythm of the main motif is the same in both works, and the melodies are similar too.  The big tune in the finale of the 7th sounds like a distorted version of M-S.    I sometimes wonder if this was deliberate on Mahler's part ....

I am with you on the 8th ...
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
Harlan Ellison (1934 - )

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: jlaurson on June 27, 2012, 12:51:26 PM
Boulez (DG) has a very strong Sixth to offer...Blind hearings would surely show him ranked as surprisingly emotive!)

Jens has the gift. He's prescient! I'd always dismissed Boulez's Sixth as cold, unfeeling, but listening blind I came to appreciate the emotional depths are there. Fascinating.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: madaboutmahler on June 27, 2012, 09:28:33 AMSo, what do you all think of the results? Surprised?

Except for Pappano I wasn't surprised by who the conductors were. I knew I'd heard Barbirolli, Tennstedt and Boulez, and suspected B5 was Bertini. Surprised by the results? Well, I knew Barbirolli was going to win but was pleasantly surprised to see Tennstedt make a last minute surge. He came so close! I am surprised all my favorite Sixths bit the dust. None of the five finalists impressed me enough to be included in my personal Top Five. Still, I will no longer denigrate Boulez, who's performance I really did enjoy for the first time (thanks, Daniel, for being instrumental in opening my ears); and I'm going to investigate Tennstedt with closer scrutiny than I have in the past (I saw him conduct the Seventh in Cleveland....I'm shocked that experience didn't make me a Tennstedt fan).

Sarge 
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"