Holst's The Planets

Started by Elgarian, April 27, 2012, 07:07:26 AM

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Karl Henning

Quote from: eyeresist on May 02, 2012, 08:13:41 PM
The "rip-off" of Mars is axiomatic but untrue. There is no direct motivic borrowing

There needn't be, for the axiom to be perfectly true.

Were I inclined to pursue the matter, I fully expect I could demonstrate to you motivic connections. Whether the severe Williams fans would  own up to the demo, were another matter entirely.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

Quote from: mc ukrneal on May 03, 2012, 04:59:07 AM
I suggest we take a John William discussion about the Planets to the John Williams thread, where the debate has been inflamed, passionate, and downright dirty at times and leave this thread in relative bliss. :)

Sorry, missed this.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Leo K.

I now have a few recordings of The Planets :) unfortunately don't have Bernstein's yet, but I decided to start with these:

Boult
Karajan
Steinberg

I shall listen soon, and will post some thoughts as well.

Great discussion here gentlemen!

Karl Henning

Quote from: 71 dB on May 03, 2012, 06:10:32 AM
. . . JW delivered a great Oscar-winning soundtrack.

Gosh: if only Holst and Stravinsky knew that the shadow of their music won an Oscar™! ; )
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

I'm sure I am never an idiot, Poju. I leave that to the people who have a genuine talent for it.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Elgarian

Quote from: Leo K on May 03, 2012, 07:12:49 AM
I now have a few recordings of The Planets :) unfortunately don't have Bernstein's yet, but I decided to start with these:

Boult
Karajan
Steinberg

I shall listen soon, and will post some thoughts as well.

Great discussion here gentlemen!

Looking forward to your impressions, Leo. My Karajan and Steinberg discs, alas, are still being enjoyed by the postal system - but when they arrive it'll be good to swap notes.

Mirror Image

Good to see this thread still going strong. I listened to Mackerras' Planets again yesterday and I'm still very impressed with it and I didn't experience any balance problems that have been reported. Elgarian, I think you'll appreciate this performance.

I look forward to your comments regarding the Mackerras and A. Davis.

Elgarian

#127


Mackerras arrived this morning (still no Karajan or Steinberg). It's a solid performance, but I don't think I'm as fond of it as you are, MI. May I suggest an experiment, which for me epitomises a particular aspect of Boult's performance? Take the last two-and-a-half minutes of Uranus (focusing particularly on the two loud passages), and listen to Boult's version; then to Mackerras. Boult's two loud passages are devastating in their impact, and for three reasons I can identify (there may be more).

First, he never lets the momentum flag. There's a forward drive in the music that's inexorable.
Second, the thing is as tight as a drum - there's a tension that never loosens.
Third, there's a clarity of articulation that somehow makes the impact definitive, like a series of irresistible sword thrusts striking home with fierce but pinpoint precision.

Mackerras doesn't achieve any of these effects - at least to these ears. He makes loud sounds, but they're just a series of loud sounds. The inevitability of Boult's thrusts, one following another implacably, is lacking. Also, the tightness, the tension, isn't there - there's a vaguely loose flabbiness to each statement. And finally, the clarity isn't there. It sounds OK until I hear Boult - then I realise there's a cloudiness or muddiness to the Mackerras sound that diminishes the impact. (MI, if you're reading this - I'd be very interested to know what happens if you try this experiment.)

Now of course, I'm exaggerating the descriptions, inevitably, in order to try to identify the differences more clearly, and my purpose is not to knock Mackerras. Rather, I want to highlight what I think is the decisive and unanswerable mastery, shattering in its impact, that Boult demonstrates in this performance. His Uranus doesn't take any prisoners.

Mirror Image

#128
Quote from: Elgarian on May 04, 2012, 08:42:41 AM


Mackerras arrived this morning (still no Karajan or Steinberg). It's a solid performance, but I don't think I'm as fond of it as you are, MI. May I suggest an experiment, which for me epitomises a particular aspect of Boult's performance? Take the last two-and-a-half minutes of Uranus (focusing particularly on the two loud passages), and listen to Boult's version; then to Mackerras. Boult's two loud passages are devastating in their impact, and for three reasons I can identify (there may be more).

First, he never lets the momentum flag. There's a forward drive in the music that's inexorable.
Second, the thing is as tight as a drum - there's a tension that never loosens.
Third, there's a clarity of articulation that somehow makes the impact definitive, like a series of irresistible sword thrusts striking home with fierce but pinpoint precision.

Mackerras doesn't achieve any of these effects - at least to these ears. He makes loud sounds, but they're just a series of loud sounds. The inevitability of Boult's thrusts, one following another implacably, is lacking. Also, the tightness, the tension, isn't there - there's a vaguely loose flabbiness to each statement. And finally, the clarity isn't there. It sounds OK until I hear Boult - then I realise there's a cloudiness or muddiness to the Mackerras sound that diminishes the impact. (MI, if you're reading this - I'd be very interested to know what happens if you try this experiment.)

Now of course, I'm exaggerating the descriptions, inevitably, in order to try to identify the differences more clearly, and my purpose is not to knock Mackerras. Rather, I want to highlight what I think is the decisive and unanswerable mastery, shattering in its impact, that Boult demonstrates in this performance. His Uranus doesn't take any prisoners.

Interesting comments, Elgarian. By the way, you can call me John. :) I will have to do the Mackerras/Boult side-by-side comparison. I'll play Mars from Boult, then I will play Mackerras, and so on. I don't really judge an entire performance on one movement. Uranus, to be honest, is probaby my least favorite movement of Planets. I don't know why exactly, but I don't really connect to it that much. Mars and Jupiter are my favorites, although I do have a soft spot for Saturn. There have been several performances where I just like one movement but feel the rest of them fall short and not because I particularly like this one movement, but because I feel that the rest of the performance didn't quite reach the energy this one movement did. As I mentioned, I like Boult's but he's nowhere near my favorite. I think his performance is just a bit too comfortable. In my estimate, Mackerras has more drive than Boult, but both Mackerras and Boult don't hold a candle to Bernstein.

Elgarian

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2012, 08:18:11 PM
I don't really judge an entire performance on one movement. Uranus, to be honest, is probaby my least favorite movement of Planets. I don't know why exactly, but I don't really connect to it that much.

No, no, I'm not suggesting for a moment that one can judge the whole thing on one movement. It's just that the differences are so very striking in that last couple of minutes of Uranus that it makes discussing their character so much easier, and I can be quite precise and specific about it, rather than taking a vague overview (as I normally tend to do in these comparisons!).  Having perceived it, it seems helpfully to crystallise the differences in approach that can be found elsewhere (at least, it does for me).

It's also worth adding that I wouldn't describe Uranus as among my favourite movements either, but (I think) I'm not really talking about favourites, as such. Rather, Boult insists that I sit up and take notice, while Mackerras leaves me (more or less) to my indifference. (Again, I'm emphasising the differences to try to clarify their character, but even then the words don't quite come out right.)

Mirror Image

#130
Quote from: Elgarian on May 04, 2012, 11:19:39 PM
No, no, I'm not suggesting for a moment that one can judge the whole thing on one movement. It's just that the differences are so very striking in that last couple of minutes of Uranus that it makes discussing their character so much easier, and I can be quite precise and specific about it, rather than taking a vague overview (as I normally tend to do in these comparisons!).  Having perceived it, it seems helpfully to crystallise the differences in approach that can be found elsewhere (at least, it does for me).

It's also worth adding that I wouldn't describe Uranus as among my favourite movements either, but (I think) I'm not really talking about favourites, as such. Rather, Boult insists that I sit up and take notice, while Mackerras leaves me (more or less) to my indifference. (Again, I'm emphasising the differences to try to clarify their character, but even then the words don't quite come out right.)

I see, well I understand your viewpoint. You know I had a similar obsession myself with Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe, which I now own 26 recordings of the complete ballet. I haven't listened to every recording I own of it but I did a lot of side-by-side comparisons. There were three performances that came out on top: Dutoit, Martinon, and Boulez (DG).

I think you'll be able to figure out which Planets you like. I honestly haven't heard that many performances of Planets, because it's not really a work I listen to very much for the simple reason of overplaying it.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 05, 2012, 06:43:53 AM
... Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe, which I now own 26 recordings of the complete ballet. I haven't listened to every recording I own of it ....

Sounds like a prospective Listening Project ....
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

#132
Quote from: karlhenning on May 05, 2012, 07:06:50 AM
Sounds like a prospective Listening Project ....

It does, but at the same time, I don't want to overplay the work. I've probably listened to 15 or 16 of the recordings I own so far that's nearly half of them. :) I guess my biggest problem that I found early on is I can really wear out a work very quickly because I become obsessed with it. Thankfully, I find another work I like and can spread the obsession out a little more so it's not so singular. :D

Leo K.

#133
Okay, I'm listening to the Planet's for the first time, decided to listen to Boult first, based on Elgarian's thoughts on that recording, feeling it would suit my sensibility for the first run through of this work.

IN the middle of Saturn right now, and had to get on and say it is a GREAT experience so far, this work and recording, which is a vinyl rip on CD. The sound is excellent and open, no distortions in the loud parts.

I am enchanted by Holst's music, recognizing a few sections of the music, in Mars, Venus and especially Jupiter. I'm having those, "so that's who wrote that!" moments. The work is so embedded in our collected consciousness, I guess I shouldn't be so surprised.

I love the bleakness of Saturn, and now on to Uranus. Back to listening...


(returning) The music as a whole is somewhat nostalgic in tone, the soundscapes full of imagination with an overall mood of an epic journey into a melancholy darkness.


Elgarian

Quote from: Leo K on May 05, 2012, 09:43:22 AM
Okay, I'm listening to the Planet's for the first time, decided to listen to Boult first, based on Elgarian's thoughts on that recording, feeling it would suit my sensibility for the first run through of this work.

IN the middle of Saturn right now, and had to get on and say it is a GREAT experience so far, this work and recording, which is a vinyl rip on CD. The sound is excellent and open, no distortions in the loud parts.

I am enchanted by Holst's music, recognizing a few sections of the music, in Mars, Venus and especially Jupiter. I'm having those, "so that's who wrote that!" moments. The work is so embedded in our collected consciousness, I guess I shouldn't be so surprised.

I love the bleakness of Saturn, and now on to Uranus. Back to listening...


(returning) The music as a whole is somewhat nostalgic in tone, the soundscapes full of imagination with an overall mood of an epic journey into a melancholy darkness.

Great to hear it's having such a positive impact, Leo. Do please keep posting your thoughts. When my Karajan and Steinberg decide to arrive (it's taking an age!) we should be able to compare some very interesting impressions.

Scion7

Beethoven and Holst have this in common, that they are both uncompromisingly direct in their utterance. Holst never fumbles; he says what he means without circumlocution; he is not afraid of a downright tune like both the tunes in 'Jupiter'. On the other hand, where the depth of the thought requires recondite harmony he does not flinch. The strange chords in 'Neptune' make our 'moderns' sound like milk and water. Yet these chords never seem 'wrong', nor are they incongruous ... - Ralph Vaughan Williams
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Leo K.

Quote from: Elgarian on May 05, 2012, 10:45:39 AM
Great to hear it's having such a positive impact, Leo. Do please keep posting your thoughts. When my Karajan and Steinberg decide to arrive (it's taking an age!) we should be able to compare some very interesting impressions.

Wow, the Karajan completely devastated me in it's rich sound and effortless playing!

I still love Boult, but Karajan's account, not as rushed, has weight and grandeur, and the BPO sound glorious. The surreal, ambient landscapes in Saturn and Neptune are chilling in its wandering loneliness.

I'll have to listen again for more specific thoughts :)


Elgarian

Quote from: Leo K on May 07, 2012, 07:03:37 AM
I still love Boult, but Karajan's account, not as rushed, has weight and grandeur, and the BPO sound glorious. The surreal, ambient landscapes in Saturn and Neptune are chilling in its wandering loneliness.

The Karajan I have on order is the one with the Vienna PO, so in view of your comments Leo, I'm now wondering if I should try to track down a copy of the one with the BPO as well.

My Andrew Davis recording has arrived; it seems very good, and yet I found myself asking: 'Is this showing me anything about The Planets that I haven't seen already? I'm not sure that it is. And the more I let the business stew, and the more I sample the recordings I have, the more I'm inclined to think that Bernstein is in a class of his own; that Boult shows us the masterful and decisive result of a lifetime's contemplation of the work; and that those two are the distinctive voices that have emerged from my experiment so far. Nothing wrong with the others (apart from Dutoit, who doesn't get close to what I'm looking for) - it's just that I can't quite see why I would listen to them when I can choose either Bernstein or Boult instead.

But nothing is fixed in stone; everything is provisional; and these are not in any sense recommendations for anyone else: merely how things stand, for me, at the moment. Karajan and Steinberg may well stir things up. And I'm thinking also about trying out the distinctiveness of Gardiner, as noted by Sarge.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Elgarian on May 07, 2012, 08:14:54 AM
The Karajan I have on order is the one with the Vienna PO, so in view of your comments Leo, I'm now wondering if I should try to track down a copy of the one with the BPO as well.

My Andrew Davis recording has arrived; it seems very good, and yet I found myself asking: 'Is this showing me anything about The Planets that I haven't seen already? I'm not sure that it is. And the more I let the business stew, and the more I sample the recordings I have, the more I'm inclined to think that Bernstein is in a class of his own; that Boult shows us the masterful and decisive result of a lifetime's contemplation of the work; and that those two are the distinctive voices that have emerged from my experiment so far. Nothing wrong with the others (apart from Dutoit, who doesn't get close to what I'm looking for) - it's just that I can't quite see why I would listen to them when I can choose either Bernstein or Boult instead.

But nothing is fixed in stone; everything is provisional; and these are not in any sense recommendations for anyone else: merely how things stand, for me, at the moment. Karajan and Steinberg may well stir things up. And I'm thinking also about trying out the distinctiveness of Gardiner, as noted by Sarge.

Yes, the Bernstein is in a class of it's own. It's the first recording of Planets that really hit me. Everything is just right about it. Mars is ferious, Jupiter is majestic, Saturn is brooding, Neptune is dreamy, Mercury is a lightning bolt, etc. The performance has everything.

Scion7

Really?  I don't think Bernstein's take on it is right at all.   Much prefer the Karajan/BPO.
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."