Holst's The Planets

[TheGSMoeller]

BTW PPP, if ever a Norrington version comes across - played on period instruments no doubt, I delegate to you the chore task of writing a review !

Not on period instruments, but it's Norrington. Perhaps this was reviewed by PPP already.

[André]

Arrgggh ! He did it! The fink, malfeasant, balding trickster ... !  . And how does it sound ?

[TheGSMoeller]

Arrgggh ! He did it! The fink, malfeasant, balding trickster ... !  . And how does it sound ?

It hits and misses. High point being Uranus and low point being Mars, which unfortunately is a bad way to start the piece. But it's always interesting to hear Norrington's take on classics. The Stuttgarts play marvelously as usual, and the Hanssler sound is very nice, as usual.

[André]

Well, thanks GS !

[Peter Power Pop]

Arrgggh ! He did it! The fink, malfeasant, balding trickster ... !  . And how does it sound ?

You can hear for yourself:

Roger Norrington, Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des SWR, 2001

[Peter Power Pop]

It hits and misses. High point being Uranus and low point being Mars, which unfortunately is a bad way to start the piece. But it's always interesting to hear Norrington's take on classics. The Stuttgarts play marvelously as usual, and the Hanssler sound is very nice, as usual.

For me, Norrington's Planets were weird. One thing I found frustrating was that interpretatively he was all over the shop. I didn't hear any consistency in his approach to the work. More than once, I thought he was messin' about with things (like dynamics and tempo) just for the sake of it. It left me with a distinct "Grrr" sensation.

[Pat B]

I tried the Maazel, but stopped about halfway through Mars. I am surprised that got released without being patched up.

BTW PPP, if ever a Norrington version comes across - played on period instruments no doubt, I delegate to you the chore task of writing a review !

FWIW there is a PI recording, New Queen's Hall Orchestra conducted by Goodman. It's hard to find on CD (I happened across a copy) but it is on spotify. I'd need to relisten before writing about it.

[Peter Power Pop]

I tried the Maazel, but stopped about halfway through Mars. I am surprised that got released without being patched up.

Yeah, the Maazel's a bit of a mess.

FWIW there is a PI recording, New Queen's Hall Orchestra conducted by Goodman. It's hard to find on CD (I happened across a copy) but it is on spotify. I'd need to relisten before writing about it.

I've reviewed the Goodman Planets, but haven't posted it yet because it's in the top 10. (I'm trying not to posting anything in the top 10 until the list is all rarin' to go. Unfortunately, two top-tenners have already snuck in.)

[Pat B]

Yeah, the Maazel's a bit of a mess.

Right, I listened to it from your post (and noticed the same flubs, until I turned it off). It too had been on my consider-buying list, based mostly on some gmg comments which made it sound intriguing, but I took it off much faster than the Herrmann.

[André]

I'm curious to hear a PI performance of The Planets. Unfortunately this disc is unavailable, although youtube has it. I have qualms about the concept though. Shouldn't the first Boult performance be viewed as the benchmark for such an experiment ? After all he did create the work (in the concert hall and on records), so what's the use ?  . Unless the Goodman is a recreation in modern sonics of that Boult version ?? Is it, PPP ?

[Peter Power Pop]

I'm curious to hear a PI performance of The Planets. Unfortunately this disc is unavailable, although youtube has it. ...

Goodman's Planets is now on Spotify:

https://play.spotify.com/user/tdubose/playlist/4xSmEWcIz2YGoxFlfPQbrf

... I have qualms about the concept though. Shouldn't the first Boult performance be viewed as the benchmark for such an experiment ? ...

Well, a chap called James Reid has something to say about that. In his essay, An Astronomer's Guide to Holst's The Planets, he says this:

"Sir Adrian Boult, a friend of the composer, conducted the first performance of The Planets in 1918, and recorded it commercially at least five times between 1945 and 1978. Boult is often taken as "authoritative." However, he is often at odds with the composer's versions, and I believe he adversely influenced many later conductors. Although only the last of the Boult recordings is given in our list, a look at all of them would reveal great inconsistencies from one to another."

Reid considers Holst's own recordings from 1926 as the definitive word on The Planets.

In response to critics who say Holst's recordings aren't accurate because of the recording limitations of the time, and of Holst's (alleged) dodgy conducting skills, Reid says:

"In spite of their antique sound quality, these priceless documents can directly convey to us the composer's own conception of The Planets. Other later conductors vary widely in their "interpretation" of the work. They differ most obviously in tempo — often drastically so in Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune. Since I believe Holst's second (1926) recording is "right" (and who can argue with the composer himself?), I have given his timings for each movement in Table B, so that the reader can compare his tempos with selected later recordings. Holst's tempos are invariably fast compared to almost all later recordings. Some have tried to argue that Holst's fast tempos result from 1920s recording industry pressure to keep within the time limit of that era of four minutes per side, yielding eight minutes per two-sided disc. This argument is disproved by many other recordings from around 1926 that use the full four minutes per side. If Holst had wanted, say, eight minutes for his discs of Mars or Saturn, instead of about six or seven respectively, he could easily have recorded them that way."

... After all he did create the work (in the concert hall and on records), so what's the use ?  . ...

See above.

... Unless the Goodman is a recreation in modern sonics of that Boult version ?? Is it, PPP ?

Reid says this:

"The 1996 recording conducted by Roy Goodman is a special case. Goodman set out to emulate the composer's 1926 recording, including the tempos, and his orchestra uses museum instruments or replicas of the type of instruments used around the time of Holst's recording. We are unlikely to ever get much closer to Holst's own intentions and interpretation than Goodman's performance. For anyone interested in this music, Goodman's is a must-hear recording."

[North Star]

Goodman's Planets is now on Spotify:

On Youtube, too:
https://www.youtube.com/v/hlMX4xzBEhA

[André]

This is all and good, man ! Hopefully a proper digital support will find its way so we can make our individual and collective minds about it !

[relm1]

On Youtube, too:
https://www.youtube.com/v/hlMX4xzBEhA

Whoa!  That's intense!

[relm1]

Well, a chap called James Reid has something to say about that. In his essay, An Astronomer’s Guide to Holst’s The Planets, he says this:

"Sir Adrian Boult, a friend of the composer, conducted the first performance of The Planets in 1918, and recorded it commercially at least five times between 1945 and 1978. Boult is often taken as “authoritative.” However, he is often at odds with the composer’s versions, and I believe he adversely influenced many later conductors. Although only the last of the Boult recordings is given in our list, a look at all of them would reveal great inconsistencies from one to another."

Reid considers Holst's own recordings from 1926 as the definitive word on The Planets.

In response to critics who say Holst's recordings aren't accurate because of the recording limitations of the time, and of Holst's (alleged) dodgy conducting skills, Reid says:

"In spite of their antique sound quality, these priceless documents can directly convey to us the composer’s own conception of The Planets. Other later conductors vary widely in their “interpretation” of the work. They differ most obviously in tempo — often drastically so in Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Neptune. Since I believe Holst’s second (1926) recording is “right” (and who can argue with the composer himself?), I have given his timings for each movement in Table B, so that the reader can compare his tempos with selected later recordings. Holst’s tempos are invariably fast compared to almost all later recordings. Some have tried to argue that Holst’s fast tempos result from 1920s recording industry pressure to keep within the time limit of that era of four minutes per side, yielding eight minutes per two-sided disc. This argument is disproved by many other recordings from around 1926 that use the full four minutes per side. If Holst had wanted, say, eight minutes for his discs of Mars or Saturn, instead of about six or seven respectively, he could easily have recorded them that way."

See above.

Reid says this:

"The 1996 recording conducted by Roy Goodman is a special case. Goodman set out to emulate the composer’s 1926 recording, including the tempos, and his orchestra uses museum instruments or replicas of the type of instruments used around the time of Holst’s recording. We are unlikely to ever get much closer to Holst’s own intentions and interpretation than Goodman’s performance. For anyone interested in this music, Goodman’s is a must-hear recording."

Not to be pedantic, but one counter point to this is just because Holst is a gifted composer doesn’t necessarily make his interpretation definitive.  Conducting is a very different skill set from composing in that it requires the ability to efficiently and effectively cajole a performance (hopefully rising to artistic levels) from a wide range of instruments and their respective peculiarities and personalities.   Unless there is evidence a composer struggled with the conductor’s interpretation, I wouldn’t solely take the fact that the composer is the conductor to be an indication of a performance being definitive representation of their intent.   

[Pat B]

Not to be pedantic, but one counter point to this is just because Holst is a gifted composer doesn't necessarily make his interpretation definitive.  Conducting is a very different skill set from composing in that it requires the ability to efficiently and effectively cajole a performance (hopefully rising to artistic levels) from a wide range of instruments and their respective peculiarities and personalities.   Unless there is evidence a composer struggled with the conductor's interpretation, I wouldn't solely take the fact that the composer is the conductor to be an indication of a performance being definitive representation of their intent.

Right, and sometimes a conductor will do it in a way that the composer hadn't thought of, or didn't know was possible (I'm thinking specifically of Stravinsky's reported reaction to Bernstein's NYPO Rite of Spring, though I'm sure there are other examples.)

I don't think we can assume that every composer had a single, invariant intent of how every piece should sound.

To get back to André's post, I don't think that period-instrument performers are obligated to mimic Holst, or Boult, or any other allegedly "definitive" performance, any more than modern-instrument performers are.

Anyway, I should give Goodman another listen -- but I also have Tortelier in my Pile.

[mc ukrneal]

Whoa!  That's intense!

Really? Unison issues and intonation issues kill it for me...

[Peter Power Pop]

Time for some more reviews...

William Boughton, Philharmonia Orchestra, 1988

[Christo]

Just counted, I own 22 versions of The Planets. Without ever trying hard at all, just accidentally bought over the years. And heard The Planets live just once, in Barbican, London, Mark Elder conducting (forgot which of the six London orchestras). Time that you offer yout Top Ten, so that I can do away with half of them. 

[Peter Power Pop]

Just counted, I own 22 versions of The Planets. Without ever trying hard at all, just accidentally bought over the years. And heard The Planets live just once, in Barbican, London, Mark Elder conducting (forgot which of the six London orchestras). ...

Speaking of Mark Elder and live recordings of The Planets, there's a live recording from the 1999 Proms that was released on CD. It was recorded at the Royal Albert Hall on Sunday 18 July 1999, with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales.



I've bought it, but it hasn't arrived yet.

Incidentally (and coincidentally), The Planets will be performed by The Hallé Orchestra and Mark Elder in Manchester next month (Thursday 16 April 2015 at 7:30 PM).

... Time that you offer youy Top Ten, so that I can do away with half of them. 

Yep. It doesn't seem likely that the Hilary Davan Wetton version is going to appear anytime soon (unless I hear back from Hilary, who I emailed a few days ago), so I think I'll post the full list soon. I'm finishing up my review of Stokowski's 1943 recording, and once that's done I'll have 74 recordings for your delectation. 75 if that live Elder recording arrives in time.

Onward and upward!