German Baroque Music

[Que]

A short comment on this triptych by Epoca Barocca with chamber (trio) sonatas from Dresden and Berlin.

My fist comment must be that I can't believe how freaking good this ensemble is!
The instruments, my beloved Baroque woodwinds in particular, the fantastic interplay as an ensemble. And all in totally natural recordings. It all sounds as fresh as on the day it was first performed. If I may do a little name dropping: the bassoon player is Sergio Azzolini, who might be familair to several on this forum. But it is also oboist Alessandro Piqué who is stealing the show - what an astute and sensitive player.

[asin]B000AMMSGW[/asin]

[asin]B002X669J0[/asin]

[asin]B000I2IUO8[/asin]

As far as the music goes, I like all three and no ardent lover of Baroque chamber music should be without!

That being said, priority should IMO go to the disc with music by the "German Zelenka", Johan David Heinichen. This is chamber ensemble music from the German Baroque of the highest order.
Of the two disc with music by the later Christoph Schaffrath, who wrote in the transitional "Galant" style, the disc with the Duetti ("Six Sonatas") is the more interesting one. It contains duets between two solo instruments, sometimes with obligato accompaniment in various settings: bassoon & harpsichord, 2 viola da gambas, violin & harpsichord, 2 harpsichords, oboe & harpsichord. Here Schaffrath shows off his skills in counterpoint while combining the old with the new.
But let me not dumb down the other Schaffrath disc - especially in performances of this exceptional level a very cute disc for the Baroque lover.

Epoca Barocca also did a disc with music by Johann Friedrich Fasch - I guess I'll have to get this as well.

Q

[SonicMan46]

A short comment on this triptych by Epoca Barocca with chamber (trio) sonatas from Dresden and Berlin.

My fist comment must be that I can't believe how freaking good this ensemble is! .............

As far as the music goes, I like all three and no ardent lover of Baroque chamber music should be without! .................

Epoca Barocca also did a disc with music by Johann Friedrich Fasch - I guess I'll have to get this as well.

Hi Que - I love Epoca Barocca - looks like I'll be adding some more to my cart today!  Currently own one disc each of Fasch, Hasse, Platti, & Schaffrath all labeled 'Trios & Sonatas' (or vice versa) - thanks for jogging my memory of this excellent group!  Dave

[SonicMan46]

Que - question about the Heinichen disc w/ Epoca Barocca - the works are listed as to instruments used & keys, but no catalog numbers (apparently 2 exist, one being by Seibel); I'm putting together an Amazon order of this group, but I own a 2-CD set of his Dresden Concerti w/ MAK, which is excellent; the Seibel # are: 204, 208, 211, 213-215, 217, 226, 231-235, & 240 - I'm just curious if the booklet on the EB group includes any catalog numbers; really don't need complete duplication of these works - thanks for any help - Dave


 

[Que]

Que - question about the Heinichen disc w/ Epoca Barocca - the works are listed as to instruments used & keys, but no catalog numbers (apparently 2 exist, one being by Seibel); I'm putting together an Amazon order of this group, but I own a 2-CD set of his Dresden Concerti w/ MAK, which is excellent; the Seibel # are: 204, 208, 211, 213-215, 217, 226, 231-235, & 240 - I'm just curious if the booklet on the EB group includes any catalog numbers; really don't need complete duplication of these works - thanks for any help - Dave

Hi Dave  , the CPO disc by Epoca Barocca does not list any Seibel nrs. And the works might probably not have any...
The booklet describes the Goebel recording as the key recording that helped uncover Heinichen's musical quality. It seems therefore unlikely that the disc would duplicate any of the works that Goebel recorded.

Quote from the review by Brian Robins in Fanfare:

The chamber works on the present disc would seem to fall into the category of newly found pieces, since they are referred to in the notes as having only recently come to attention as the result of musicological research. That presumably accounts for them not carrying Seibel numbers (the cataloging system used for Heinichen's works). All are apparently unique sources housed in library collections of oboe sonatas by various composers in Dresden and Darmstadt.

BTW I also came across a nice review by Johan van Veen of the Heinichen disc.

Q

[SonicMan46]

Hi Dave  , the CPO disc by Epoca Barocca does not list any Seibel nrs. And the works might probably not have any...
The booklet describes the Goebel recording as the key recording that helped uncover Heinichen's musical quality. It seems therefore unlikely that the disc would duplicate any of the works that Goebel recorded.

Quote from the review by Brian Robins in Fanfare:
BTW I also came across a nice review by Johan van Veen of the Heinichen disc.

Thanks Que for your thoughts and the link to the Fanfare review - believe that I'll add that disc to my order now!  Dave

[Mandryka]

Does anyone here know about Froberger's keyboard music?

One piece I like is the thing  labeled Suite III on Ludger Remy's CDs, the one with the lovely allemande called Wasserfall.

Well I thought I'd seek out other records of it, just out of curiosity. So I went to Richard Egarr's complete Froberger CDs, which happen to be on spotify. But what's going on? The wonderful Remy Suite III is unfindable? Egarr records something he calls suite iii, but it's not the same.

Are these Strasbourg Manuscripts that Remy plays not really Froberger? Or am I being stupid and missing them on Egarr's records?

[prémont]

One piece I like is the thing  labeled Suite III on Ludger Remy's CDs, the one with the lovely allemande called Wasserfall.

Well I thought I'd seek out other records of it, just out of curiosity. So I went to Richard Egarr's complete Froberger CDs, which happen to be on spotify. But what's going on? The wonderful Remy Suite III is unfindable? Egarr records something he calls suite iii, but it's not the same.

Are these Strasbourg Manuscripts that Remy plays not really Froberger? Or am I being stupid and missing them on Egarr's records?

There is a Froberger Werkverzeichnis (FbWV) by S. Rampe, but Remy´s  numbering of the Strassbourg suites seems to stem from the sequence in this manuscript. So there is, as far as I can see, some confusion as to the numbering of the suites. Also the suites of the Strassbourg Manuscript was discovered only recently (1999). This is the reason, why Egarr didn´t record them. Only a few of the Strassbourg suites were known from other sources. The "waterfall" allemande is indeed charming, but I think that all the Strassbourg suites are on a high artistic level. I do not know the considerations concerning the contribution of the suites to Froberger, but they are written very much in his style, and as to the artistic expression they are to a large extent permeated by the special Frobergerian melancoly.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Jakob_Froberger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Jakob_Froberger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Johann_Jakob_Froberger

[Mandryka]

There is a Froberger Werkverzeichnis (FbWV) by S. Rampe, but Remy´s  numbering of the Strassbourg suites seems to stem from the sequence in this manuscript. So there is, as far as I can see, some confusion as to the numbering of the suites. Also the suites of the Strassbourg Manuscript was discovered only recently. This may be the reason, why Egarr didn´t record them. Only a few of the Strassbourg suites were known from other sources. The "waterfall" allemande is indeed charming, but I think that all the Strassbourg suites are on a high artistic level. I do not know the considerations concerning the contribution of the suites to Froberger, but they are written very much in his style, and as to the artistic expression they are to a large extent permeated by the special Frobergerian melancoly.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Jakob_Froberger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Jakob_Froberger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Johann_Jakob_Froberger

Thanks for putting the work in, premont. I'm really getting into those Remy CDs. Another suite I enjoyed a lot is XIII. It's strange that Egarr doesn't compile the music as suites, but because I'm listening to his records on spotify I don't have any notes. On spotify there's an allemande which is tagged as Suite iii, in Vol 1 of the Egarr set,  but it's not the one from the Strasbourg manuscript.

Remy is a very fine musician. There's a soft spoken, lyrical, elegant, gentle quality about his style which I very much appreciate. In some ways he reminds me of Frisch.

I wish I had more Froberger organ music. Recommendations appreciated.

[Que]

Thanks for putting the work in, premont. I'm really getting into those Remy CDs. Another suite I enjoyed a lot is XIII. It's strange that Egarr doesn't compile the music as suites, but because I'm listening to his records on spotify I don't have any notes. On spotify there's an allemande which is tagged as Suite iii, in Vol 1 of the Egarr set,  but it's not the one from the Strasbourg manuscript.

Remy is a very fine musician. There's a soft spoken, lyrical, elegant, gentle quality about his style which I very much appreciate. In some ways he reminds me of Frisch.

I wish I had more Froberger organ music. Recommendations appreciated.

Honestly I think Froberger, with his special mixture of French, German and Italian Baroque styles in a highly personal style, could even make a better impression in other recordings than Rémy, who I personally don't think is all that. I don't think he nailed Froberger stylistically, to me it lacks definition and structural clarity. It's neither here nor there, which might be the way Froberger sounds like himself, but appearances deceive.

I am a known advocate of Bob van Asperen's complete Froberger series on Aeolus - also recommended for the organ works! Completely different and with a distinct idiosyncratic touch, is Enrico Baiano's single recital disc (Symphonia).

The "Waterfall Allemande" is the 1st mvt of a suite numbered XXVII, found on volume 1 of the series:



Samples HERE.

Q

[prémont]

Honestly I think Froberger, with his special mixture of French, German and Italian Baroque styles in a highly personal style, could even make a better impression in other recordings than Rémy, who I personally don't think is all that. I don't think he nailed Froberger stylistically, to me it lacks definition and structural clarity. It's neither here nor there, which might be the way Froberger sounds like himself, but appearances deceive.

The Strassbourg manuscript is a collection of suites, and I look at it in the way, that the style of these suites is predominantly French,  that Italian stylistic traits in these suites are sparse, and German style? Well, rather than saying that Frobergers suites are influenced by German style, I think that Frobergar actually was the one who in the first hand defined the German Klaviersuite with its first and foremost French stylistic elements, and that it was later composers (Buxtehude, Pachelbel, J.K.F.Fischer and not the least J.S.Bach), who added Italian and German elements to the suite, making of it what we now call the German Klaviersuite. I think Remy captures the intimate French style of these suites well and also masters the Frobergerian melancoly, which is a more subtle and less tangible affect than e.g. the Dowlandian sadness.

The situation would be quite another one with Frobergers obviously Italian influenced toccate and ricercari et.c.

[Wakefield]

The Strassbourg manuscript is a collection of suites, and I look at it in the way, that the style of these suites is predominantly French,  that Italian stylistic traits in these suites are sparse, and German style? Well, rather than saying that Frobergers suites are influenced by German style, I think that Frobergar actually was the one who in the first hand defined the German Klaviersuite with its first and foremost French stylistic elements, and that it was later composers (Buxtehude, Pachelbel, J.K.F.Fischer and not the least J.S.Bach), who added Italian and German elements to the suite, making of it what we now call the German Klaviersuite. I think Remy captures the intimate French style of these suites well and also masters the Frobergerian melancoly, which is a more subtle and less tangible affect than e.g. the Dowlandian sadness.

The situation would be quite another one with Frobergers obviously Italian influenced toccate and ricercari et.c.

BTW, did you listen to Rémy's transcriptions of the cello suites? It would seem very well done.

[prémont]

BTW, did you listen to Rémy's transcriptions of the cello suites? It would seem very well done.

Yes, but only once - when I got them several months ago. First impression very positive.

[Que]

The Strassbourg manuscript is a collection of suites, and I look at it in the way, that the style of these suites is predominantly French,  that Italian stylistic traits in these suites are sparse, and German style? Well, rather than saying that Frobergers suites are influenced by German style, I think that Frobergar actually was the one who in the first hand defined the German Klaviersuite with its first and foremost French stylistic elements, and that it was later composers (Buxtehude, Pachelbel, J.K.F.Fischer and not the least J.S.Bach), who added Italian and German elements to the suite, making of it what we now call the German Klaviersuite. I think Remy captures the intimate French style of these suites well and also masters the Frobergerian melancoly, which is a more subtle and less tangible affect than e.g. the Dowlandian sadness.

The situation would be quite another one with Frobergers obviously Italian influenced toccate and ricercari et.c.

Predominantly French, yes, but on the other hand distinctly not French..  The Italian influence being more present in the organ works, that's why I mentioned it.
German... well what was the "German style" in Froberger's time? I was thinking of the influence of the Sweelinck-lineage.

Q

[milk]

Honestly I think Froberger, with his special mixture of French, German and Italian Baroque styles in a highly personal style, could even make a better impression in other recordings than Rémy, who I personally don't think is all that. I don't think he nailed Froberger stylistically, to me it lacks definition and structural clarity. It's neither here nor there, which might be the way Froberger sounds like himself, but appearances deceive.

I am a known advocate of Bob van Asperen's complete Froberger series on Aeolus - also recommended for the organ works! Completely different and with a distinct idiosyncratic touch, is Enrico Baiano's single recital disc (Symphonia).

The "Waterfall Allemande" is the 1st mvt of a suite numbered XXVII, found on volume 1 of the series:



Samples HERE.

Q

I wonder what you'd think of these two recordings I downloaded (and have been enjoying) recently: 

[prémont]

Predominantly French, yes, but on the other hand distinctly not French..  The Italian influence being more present in the organ works, that's why I mentioned it.
German... well what was the "German style" in Froberger's time? I was thinking of the influence of the Sweelinck-lineage.

I think you confuse things a bit. Froberger actually defined the German Klaviersuite (allemande,gigue,courante,sarabande) building upon French models (such as L. Couperin) and adding a tad individual and original Froberger style (e.g. affectfiguration, and more imitation than the French did). Even his allemandes are unmistakably French, and only some of the gigues are more internatonal in style. There was no German Klaviersuite before Froberger. Sweelinck wrote no suites, and had no influence upon Frobergers suites. The Italian and German elements were added by later composers in their suites, whereby the German Klaviersuite underwent some transformation with time..

As to Frobergers Italian influenced works Frescobaldi was the towering figure, and I think Sweelinck´s influence even here was of minor importance. On the other hand Sweelinck of course exerted a great influence upon his own pupils and their successors.

[prémont]

I wonder what you'd think of these two recordings I downloaded (and have been enjoying) recently: 

Are they available in the CD medium?

[Que]

I wonder what you'd think of these two recordings I downloaded (and have been enjoying) recently: 

New kids on the block, that I don't know! First impressions:

After heaving heard some (Youtube) excerpts, I must say I'm quite impressed by Romanian Ilana Rotaru! Two minor remarks: I think in the slow movements she is on the slow side, risking to lose momentum and the fragmentation of the overall structure. Also she rather puts the emphasis on the rhetorical side of the music, which might be over egging it a bit in prolonged listening. A nice review of the disc by Johan van Veen HERE. I don't agree with the critisism in the FANFARE review on Ruckers harpsichord used - sounds pretty good to my ears, though admittedly it might sound a bit "bigger" than Froberger might have been used to.

The lady with the double Dutch name plays an Italian instrument that is perhaps more correct in terms of date, but I'm not sure about if the sound - very Italian (dry, penetrating, wiry) indeed - is despite the Italian connection of the music the most appropriate. If anything, French instruments seem the most logical choice. Van Asperen uses a Ruckers for the 1st volume and different French harpsichords for the subsequent volumes.

As far as I'm concerned, "dry" is also the right description for Ruiter-Feenstra's interpretations - academic and authoritative but lacking the free spirit necessary for this music. Rotaru demonstrates why and how.

Q

[Que]

Are they available in the CD medium?

Yes, found them both on Amazon.

Q

[Mandryka]

Honestly I think Froberger, with his special mixture of French, German and Italian Baroque styles in a highly personal style, could even make a better impression in other recordings than Rémy, who I personally don't think is all that. I don't think he nailed Froberger stylistically, to me it lacks definition and structural clarity. It's neither here nor there, which might be the way Froberger sounds like himself, but appearances deceive.

I am a known advocate of Bob van Asperen's complete Froberger series on Aeolus - also recommended for the organ works! Completely different and with a distinct idiosyncratic touch, is Enrico Baiano's single recital disc (Symphonia).

The "Waterfall Allemande" is the 1st mvt of a suite numbered XXVII, found on volume 1 of the series:



Samples HERE.

Q

First I want to say thank you for highlighting these Asperen recordings. I've been playing today all that I could find on the web -- the CD called "Pour Passer la melencolie" and the one of the Cds from the set  called "Le Passage du Rhin-Werke" It's absolutely obvious to me that this is lovely music making and lovely music. I have no doubt that I will collect the series, and I'm looking forward to getting to know Froberger's music that way.

The CD I found from "Le Passage du Rhin" happens to contain the suite with  the Allemande reprasentans monticidium Frobergeri, which is on Remy's recording, so I took the time to listen to Remy as well. I don't know about the correct style, but I do know that I find Remy very moving and that I like his understated air of confidentiality. I've always liked that sort of confidential intimate playing, in singing and in piano. Playing where it's as if the performer is confiding a secret to you, whispering gently and passionately. I'm very glad to have found it from a harpsichordist.

By the way, I was wrong to say in the post I made yesterday that there was a resemblance between Frisch and Remy - that was a false memory. I played both of them today in Suite II and Frisch is more vigorous and extrovert.  I like both of them very much -- fortunately I don't have to choose.

You also mentioned Enrico Baiano's recital. I've had it for ages but somehow I've never got into it. I'll try again soon.

[milk]

New kids on the block, that I don't know! First impressions:

After heaving heard some (Youtube) excerpts, I must say I'm quite impressed by Romanian Ilana Rotaru! Two minor remarks: I think in the slow movements she is on the slow side, risking to lose momentum and the fragmentation of the overall structure. Also she rather puts the emphasis on the rhetorical side of the music, which might be over egging it a bit in prolonged listening. A nice review of the disc by Johan van Veen HERE. I don't agree with the critisism in the FANFARE review on Ruckers harpsichord used - sounds pretty good to my ears, though admittedly it might sound a bit "bigger" than Froberger might have been used to.

The lady with the double Dutch name plays an Italian instrument that is perhaps more correct in terms of date, but I'm not sure about if the sound - very Italian (dry, penetrating, wiry) indeed - is despite the Italian connection of the music the most appropriate. If anything, French instruments seem the most logical choice. Van Asperen uses a Ruckers for the 1st volume and different French harpsichords for the subsequent volumes.

As far as I'm concerned, "dry" is also the right description for Ruiter-Feenstra's interpretations - academic and authoritative but lacking the free spirit necessary for this music. Rotaru demonstrates why and how.

Q

Thanks a lot Q. I don't know if I'm right about this but the program on the Ruiter-Feenstra recording seems atypical of Froberger's output. Those partitas are rather light compared to what I'm used to from him. Another recording I picked up some time back is this one by Wladyslaw Klosiewicz. I see it has been mentioned in this forum before.