Author Topic: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer  (Read 46215 times)

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Online k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #140 on: June 19, 2012, 04:37:32 AM »
Thanks for the enlightenment as ever, gents!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Brian

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #141 on: June 19, 2012, 04:50:13 AM »
Still, I think I might have preferred the Bernstein and Karajan above it. The Bernstein was just wicked in every way - that's the one I would get first.  And if you look at only GMG votes, Bernstein would have beaten E1, the eventual winner, in the previous round. ... With the same reasoning, it does not disturb me that the Tabachnik version (H4) has some technical moments, because for me the sweep of the brush (so to speak) is of more importance (and he is quite effective).

Alas, I never had a chance to hear the Bernstein in this competition. My final ballot denotes the extreme difficulty I had deciding between Abbado and Tabachnik; I picked Abbado because it was 'unique' and 'special.' But for the same reason, I might go with Tabachnik and the other best recording I heard, Karajan's, as my library references... but most certainly feeling the need to hear the Bernstein.

Very surprised how harsh I was / we were on Giulini.

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #142 on: June 19, 2012, 05:13:07 AM »
Alas, I never had a chance to hear the Bernstein in this competition. My final ballot denotes the extreme difficulty I had deciding between Abbado and Tabachnik; I picked Abbado because it was 'unique' and 'special.' But for the same reason, I might go with Tabachnik and the other best recording I heard, Karajan's, as my library references... but most certainly feeling the need to hear the Bernstein.

Very surprised how harsh I was / we were on Giulini.
I'm not (entirely). I love Giulini in opera. But I am less convinced after that. And the LAPO does not always produce a sound that I like, though I feel they do get a raw deal sometimes as well.
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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #143 on: June 19, 2012, 05:30:34 AM »
Well, when I look back in retrospect now, I think I thoroughly stick with my comments and rankings in this blind comparison. Don't think I'll be buying any of the finalists I don't already have (Boulez and Abbado). 

Actually I'm not that much surprised Ashkenazy won, it came almost all the way the last time BBC 3 Building a Library was doing La Mer, ultimately coming second behind Haitink. It is well played, well recorded, one-size-fits-all performance that is acceptable for most (like Perahia in the Chopin Ballade comp. btw).

Somewhat ironically on my shopping list will end up recordings I haven't heard in comparison. Some that I missed buying previously as Koussevitzky and Bernstein or look interesting on paper as Svetlanov or Fournet.

I've already ordered the Svetlanov actually, it's available at MDT's clearance sale for 3 euros. So whomever is interested act quick as it'll probably be first come, first served.

Discobole, which transfer of Coppola you used? I have that one on private transfer from 78s and I'm considering whether should I upgrade. I was pretty annoyed when Andante Debussy box went out of print before I got it (and Prague Spring box and VPO playing 20 century box). If you used Dutton could I ask you to pass me that first movement clip (if it is still available) so I could compare it with what I have?



Discobole

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #144 on: June 19, 2012, 05:54:33 AM »
I used the Andante transfer for Coppola. I'm still looking for the 1928 version btw, I know it was available on some blogs a few months ago.

Drasko

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #145 on: June 19, 2012, 06:11:03 AM »
Don't have the 1928. Mine is also 1932 (HMV DB-4874-76), got it several years ago from someone at rmcr.

Offline DavidRoss

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #146 on: June 20, 2012, 04:57:48 AM »
Which recordings were included in the comparison? And how large was the sample of opinions?
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

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Offline Opus106

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #147 on: June 20, 2012, 05:02:57 AM »
Which recordings were included in the comparison? And how large was the sample of opinions?

David, if you check the previous pages you will find the details of the eliminated recordings at each stage of voting (prior to the last one, of course) alongside tables of who-voted-for-what.
Regards,
Navneeth

Offline DavidRoss

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #148 on: June 20, 2012, 05:59:30 AM »
David, if you check the previous pages you will find the details of the eliminated recordings at each stage of voting (prior to the last one, of course) alongside tables of who-voted-for-what.
Thanks -- apparently 19 participants voted their preferences among samples of 32 recordings.

Final 5 (ranked in order of vote totals):
1.   Vladimir Ashkenazy, Cleveland Orchestra (Decca, 4/1986)
2.   Claudio Abbado, Lucerne Festival Orchestra (DG, live 14/8/2003)
3.   Pierre Boulez, Cleveland Orchestra (DG, 3/1993)
4.   Michel Tabachnik, Brussels Philharmonic Orchestra (BPO, 6/2010)
5.   Carlo Maria Giulini, Los Angeles Philharmonic (DG, 1980)

2nd round eliminations:
Pierre Monteux, Boston Symphony Orchestra (RCA, 19/7/1954)
Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic (Columbia/Sony, 16/10/1961)
Herbert von Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker (DG, 9-10/3/1964)
Jean Martinon, Orchestre national de l'ORTF (EMI, 1973)
Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam (Philips, 12/1976)
Michael Tilson Thomas, Philharmonia Orchestra (CBS, 1982)
Serge Baudo, London Philharmonic Orchestra (EMI, 1/1986)
Charles Dutoit, Orchestre symphonique de Montréal (Decca, 1989)
Evgueni Svetlanov, Orchestre national de France (Naïve, 25/1/2001)
Jean Fournet, Česká filharmonie (Supraphon, 27/10/1963)

1st round eliminations:
Piero Coppola, Orchestre de la société des concerts du Conservatoire (HMV, 1932)
Arturo Toscanini, BBC Symphony Orchestra (HMV, live 12/6/1935)
Serge Koussevitzky, Boston Symphony Orchestra (RCA Victor, 1938-1939).
Arturo Toscanini, NBC Symphony Orchestra (RCA, 1/6/1950)
Roger Désormière, Česká filharmonie (Supraphon/Ultraphone, 10/1950)
Charles Munch, Boston Symphony Orchestra (RCA, 1956)
Eduard van Beinum, Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam (London, 5/1957)
Igor Markevitch, Orchestre des Concerts Lamoureux (DG, 5/1959)
Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht, Orchestre national de la RTF (Montaigne, live 1962)
Charles Munch, Orchestre national de la RTF (Montaigne, live 1962)
George Szell, Cleveland Orchestra (Columbia, 11-12/1/1963).
Ernest Ansermet, Orchestre de la Suisse romande, (Decca/London, 1964)
John Barbirolli, Orchestre de Paris, (EMI, 12/1968)
Alain Lombard, Orchestre philharmonique de Strasbourg (Erato, 10/1975)
Michel Plasson, Orchestre du Capitole de Toulouse (EMI, 1987-1988)
Sergiu Celibidache, Münchner Philharmoniker (EMI, live 1992)
Jean-Claude Casadesus, Orchestre national de Lille (Harmonia Mundi, 1993-1994)

edit: corrected to include Fournet
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 09:12:35 AM by DavidRoss »
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

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Offline Opus106

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #149 on: June 20, 2012, 06:11:03 AM »
Thanks -- apparently 19 participants voted their preferences among samples of 31 recordings.

But it wasn't all uniform. Some listened to two or more groups in the same round.
Regards,
Navneeth

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #150 on: June 20, 2012, 06:24:22 AM »
But it wasn't all uniform. Some listened to two or more groups in the same round.
The first round had 8-12 votes for each group (of A to H, 8 groups). THe second round had 10-13 votes for each group (5 groups). The final round had 19 votes for 5 finalists. As you said, some voters in early rounds voted for multiple groups.
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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #151 on: June 20, 2012, 06:26:15 AM »
The bracketology aspect of this repels me, rather.  Hence, my non-participation.

And yet:  the end result is still an interesting matter for discussion; no argument, there.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #152 on: June 20, 2012, 06:32:01 AM »
The bracketology aspect of this repels me, rather.  Hence, my non-participation.

And yet:  the end result is still an interesting matter for discussion; no argument, there.

There is no perfect way. One could throw 20-30 into the ring at once, but I listened to 15 versions of a short Monteverdi Madrigal and had trouble keeping them straight all the time (let alone a 30 minute piece). One could also use another methodology, but that too starts to get complicated fast. Or, there could be many more rounds, but that drags it out. It's hard to do something that is fun and simple. This seems as good as any way to me. If you have alternative ideas, feel free to share.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Offline Brian

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #153 on: June 20, 2012, 06:37:02 AM »
The bracketology aspect of this repels me, rather.  Hence, my non-participation.

And yet:  the end result is still an interesting matter for discussion; no argument, there.


I'm sad I didn't get to hear Bernstein and Svetlanov, but as ukrneal suggests, it's simply impractical to listen to all 31... the only alternative I can think of is the old M-forever-style games where we limited ourselves to 4 clips at a time.

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #154 on: June 20, 2012, 06:38:45 AM »
There is no perfect way. One could throw 20-30 into the ring at once, but I listened to 15 versions of a short Monteverdi Madrigal and had trouble keeping them straight all the time (let alone a 30 minute piece). One could also use another methodology, but that too starts to get complicated fast. Or, there could be many more rounds, but that drags it out. It's hard to do something that is fun and simple. This seems as good as any way to me. If you have alternative ideas, feel free to share.

No, no, dear fellow, I did not mean to seem to criticize the methodology, which I am sure was as well contrived as might be.

And if folks is having fun, it is a complete success, I should think.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline DavidRoss

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #155 on: June 20, 2012, 08:27:19 AM »
...if folks is having fun, it is a complete success, I should think.
If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #156 on: June 20, 2012, 08:31:04 AM »
What, no Jean Fournet & the Czech Phil?!?! ; )
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Brian

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #157 on: June 20, 2012, 08:37:58 AM »
What, no Jean Fournet & the Czech Phil?!?! ; )

?

Pretty sure I listened to Fournet as part of this competition.

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #158 on: June 20, 2012, 08:45:09 AM »
?

Pretty sure I listened to Fournet as part of this competition.

Oh, I must have missed it in glancing o'er Dave's summary : )

There it is: at the bottom of the second eliminations : (
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline DavidRoss

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Re: Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer
« Reply #159 on: June 20, 2012, 08:47:35 AM »
?

Pretty sure I listened to Fournet as part of this competition.
Corrected above. And now I think I'll go listen to Gatti and the French National Orchestra play La Mer.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher