Blind Comparison : Debussy, La Mer

[Lisztianwagner]

I'm writing the comments; if I don't finish doing it before midnight, please, let me have a little extra time.

[Discobole]

Yeeees no trouble at all

[Discobole]

Still waiting

[Discobole]

Well, I hope for this vote tomorrow, so that I can publish the results during the day.

[Lisztianwagner]

Thank you for this comparison, I enjoyed it very very much! What a pity I couldn't listen to the Karajan, that's my favourite version. I was very impressed by Bernstein's recording, E1 and G4, what excellent performances! I'm really looking forward to seeing the results!

C3 -  The opening of the first movement is splendid, calm, intense and suggestive; excellent dynamics which captures a beautiful atmosphere, very expressive and emotionally powerful. The orchestral playing is marvelous, but I sometimes had the impression that it wasn't totally well balanced and that the instruments didn't completely support each other, creating a slightly duller sound and lacking some intensity. Nice, enjoyable tempo. The situation seems to improve in the second movement; the choice of rythm is rather interesting: it sounds a bit slower compared with other recordings (for example E1 and G4), while in the central climaxes it becomes a bit too rash.  Though there is much orchestral brilliance, great passion and atmosphere which pervades the piece is  certainly involving. The third movement is maybe the best one of the three parts; the introduction is very impressive and full of thrilling energy; lyrical and intense middle section (woodwinds and percussion are great and well-handled). Wonderful rythm at the end which makes the finale powerful, vibrant and playful.

D2 – Hmm, I have conflicting impressions about this recording. The performance of the orchestra is rather brilliant and remarkable, with a clear and precise sound; it also shows many moments of deep beauty, great enthusiasm and evocative power. However the phrasing doesn't always sound fluent and the themes don't seem to be perfectly harmonized. Intensity and dynamics are good, I liked them. Better performance in the second part, with a beautiful, melodious playing by the orchestra; the whole movement is rather atmospheric and suggestive, expressing energy  and enphasis, but it lacks a bit of tension and mystery.
The third movement shows a rather haunting and  thrilling opening; overall the atmosphere appears tense and moving, with a hectic enough pace and a nice orchestral playing.

E1 – The opening is brilliant and intense, with a very clear and splendid sound quality. The whole movement is pervaded by a thrilling, evocative atmosphere and a great harmonic richness, beautifully expressed by the interpretation of the orchestra (in particular, woodwinds and percussion are stunning). Dynamics is excellent and gives energy and passion to the piece; the choice of tempo and the phrasing are very good as well. Melodious and suggestive finale, with a very gorgeous and powerful climax. The second movement shows the same atmosphere of the first one: incredibly beautiful, playful and expressive, also adding a touch of tension and mystery, while the intensity and the evocative power are absolutely involving. Gorgeous and very well played climaxes, with an amazing solo of woodwinds and a marvelous use of the glockenspiel and the harp.
The third movement is definitely overwhelming; really tense and haunting, at the same time so vibrant and enthusiastic! The performance of the orchestra, very well balanced, is superb; the colours and the instrumentation merge together brilliantly creating a wonderful flow of music, starting from the powerful opening and continuing till the thrilling, passionate finale. The dynamics and rythm kept are very moving, excellent job by the conductor.

G4 – Along with the Bernstein and E1, this one is the version I enjoyed most. The opening has  great tension and beauty, absolutely impressive and touching. Excellent dynamics and tempo, very well controlled; the phrasing is extremely fine, all the themes blend together very melodiously. The orchestral playing, is warm, clear and full of passion and ethusiasm, maybe slightly lacking energy in the middle section; anyway overall the intesity and the expressive strenght showed really help to capture the evocative, magical atmosphere of the sea. Absolutely gorgeous, powerful climax at the end of the first movement. The second movement is very passionate, suggestive and mysterious: like the previous part, the orchestration is very colourful, brilliant and well handled (I appreciated use of harp and glockenspiel a lot, what ethereal sound), the climaxes strong and powerful and the atmosphere expressed incredibly beautiful and striking. A perfect prelude for the third movement, which is absolutely thrilling, the most  impressive and enthusiastic of the group; outstanding performance of the orchestra, incredibly suggestive, gorgeous and intense, in particular in the finale, which is definitely ravishing and with and overwhelming energy.

H4 – Quite enjoyable, remarkable performance. The first movement starts in a very melodious,  beautiful way, with a really good sound quality and a great orchestral brilliance; overall the orchestral playing is incredibly enchanting, colourful and passionate. The tempo is excellent, giving suggestion and intesity to the piece, especially in the finale, which is extremely energetic and impressive; brilliant dymanics, maybe slightly too loud brass in some sections (this aspect in the whole recording). The second movement expresses a persuasive, evocative atmosphere; the interpretation is tense, but warm and playful, with a so ethereal sound of harp! Instead the glockenspiel didn't completely satisfy me, it sometimes seems to have a bit too dull sound. The final movement shows a very powerful, thrilling opening and it certanly expresses much energy during the whole piece; the middle section is gorgeous there the use of the glockenspiel becomes more  harmonic and lyrical. Very brilliant finale, not as aggressive and enthusiastic as other recordings, but strong and involving enough; nice tempo and dynamics.

In order:
5. D2
4 C3
3 H4
2. G4
1. E1

[Discobole]

Thanks ! I'll publish the results during the day.

[Discobole]

RESULTS

Thanks to you all for participating. I counted 19 voters on 3 different forums to define the absolute best version The ranking is very tight but the average ranking allowed me to solve the minor issues (as G4=H4) and, anyway, the winner is clear.
Here are the tables of preferences and of votes :

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/201255merfin.jpg

And the final ranking :

1. E1
2. G4
3. C3
4. H4
5. D2

5th : D2 - Carlo Maria Giulini, Los Angeles Philharmonic (DG, 1980)

Clearly (according to critics but I checked it carefully during my pre-listening sessions) the best version by Giulini. Still a model, but it lacks tension, and if it certainly is one of the most beautiful orchestras of the comparison I don't find it always captivating...
My note in pre-listenings : ★★★★



4th : H4 - Michel Tabachnik, Brussels Philharmonic Orchestra (BPO, 6/2010)

The biggest surprise among finalists, and it is frankly deserved. A lively and even violent reading, but the orchestra has weaknesses (strings in particular). Still an excellent recent version, in a very francophile tradition !
My note in pre-listenings : ★★★☆



3rd : C3 - Pierre Boulez, Cleveland Orchestra (DG, 3/1993)

A technical achievement (but the mixing helps to blur a little the orchestral defects here or there), a true "reference" when you really want that. Far better than Boulez first take. But it sounds artificial and frankly (I think) lacks something, spirit, tension. A conducting lesson but I believe the score is more expressive...
My note in pre-listenings : ★★★★



2nd : G4 - Claudio Abbado, Lucerne Festival Orchestra (DG, live 14/8/2003)

Of course it is wonderful (despite a few misshaps, as the strange trumpets absence at the end of the first movement), and even better in this kind of international reference than Boulez. But I still find it very artificial, very beautiful but lacking the spirit I believe one can feel in Debussy. In the end it reminds me of Strauss tone poems more than of French music. Well done but not very subtle. Still, you loved it, and it just missed the very last confrontation.
My note in pre-listenings : ★★★☆



1st : Vladimir Ashkenazy, Cleveland Orchestra (Decca, 4/1986)

My favorite version among finalists, and clearly one of the most phenomenal I know. When I discovered it I was frankly astonished by its power, the beauty of the orchestra (not really the most perfect but not far from it) and the capacity of the conductor to sculpt the music and let the musicians offer great moments of intensity. This great version deserves to be rediscovered and better known !
My note in pre-listenings : ★★★★☆

[Lisztianwagner]

What incredible results!! So, my favourite recording is the Ashkenazy, how brilliant! It was included in my groups for the whole comparison, I enjoyed it very much; such a thrilling, expressive and poetical interpretation. The Abbado also impressed me a lot, what absolutely gorgeous music!

[Brian]

 

If I may be permitted to brag:

E1: ... The oboe cues me to an American sound, as does the general breadth and power. ... another conductor/US-orchestra pairing I would expect to supply high-voltage to-the-hilt romanticism that is fun but not very Debussian: Ashkenazy/Cleveland.

[madaboutmahler]

I am rather surprised! But also somewhat delighted! The Abbado I shall definitely be getting, great that it comes with Mahler 2! I've never been too keen on Abbado's Mahler, but if he is that special with this orchestra in La Mer, I can imagine the Mahler being a great performance too. The Ashkenazy! I would not have thought that! I shall definitely be getting that! And it's wonderful that the one that has won the comparison is also the one that can be purchased at the cheapest price on amazon!

Thank you very much for this wonderful comparison, Julien, I have loved it all! So, what's next?

[mc ukrneal]

2nd : G4 - Claudio Abbado, Lucerne Festival Orchestra (DG, live 14/8/2003)

Of course it is wonderful (despite a few misshaps, as the strange trumpets absence at the end of the first movement), and even better in this kind of international reference than Boulez. But I still find it very artificial, very beautiful but lacking the spirit I believe one can feel in Debussy. In the end it reminds me of Strauss tone poems more than of French music. Well done but not very subtle. Still, you loved it, and it just missed the very last confrontation.
My note in pre-listenings : ★★★☆

Raises hand. Sheepishly admits he owns this, because he bought it for the M2 (which is excellent), but cannot even remember if he really ever gave La Mer a chance! Properly chastised, he sits, happy his wallet will be saved another trip to the checkout....

So many surprises. Now I understand why I was underwelmed by C3 - its Boulez. Thanks again for organizing this. Good thing the French don't play in Euro 2012 until tomorrow, because we might have had to wait a while! (but gosh darn it, I really wanted Croatia to go through over the Italians...sigh....)

If I may be permitted to brag:

Good one! I'm terrible at guessing orchestras blindly.

I am rather surprised! But also somewhat delighted! The Abbado I shall definitely be getting, great that it comes with Mahler 2! I've never been too keen on Abbado's Mahler, but if he is that special with this orchestra in La Mer, I can imagine the Mahler being a great performance too. The Ashkenazy! I would not have thought that! I shall definitely be getting that! And it's wonderful that the one that has won the comparison is also the one that can be purchased at the cheapest price on amazon!

Thank you very much for this wonderful comparison, Julien, I have loved it all! So, what's next?

Since this is with Lucerne, you can find it on youtube. Start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5ruipURIGQ I must credit this very version, which I saw on the Mezzo channel, as providing my breakthrough with Mahler. Until then, I was lukewarm to Mahler. And it is hard to get these Lucerne concerts on cd - most are DVD only. Anyway, you can see what you think...no waiting!

[Brian]

Good one! I'm terrible at guessing orchestras blindly.

I usually am too. Case in point: I realized Boulez hadn't been eliminated and knew he couldn't have been left out of the bracket, but couldn't figure out if one of the five was Boulez.

Tabachnik might be the biggest surprise. It's really good.

[madaboutmahler]

Thanks for this, Neal - had a little listen to one of my favourite moments in the first movement and it sounds very good indeed. Definitely a cd I shall be getting very soon!

[Sergeant Rock]

Cleveland in two of the Top Five places!  Not surprising 

My well-known allergy to Abbado's Mahler has kept me from hearing his Lucerne La Mer. Discoble's criticism ("....the strange trumpets absence at the end of the first movement....very artificial, very beautiful but lacking the spirit...reminds me of Strauss tone poems more than of French music. Well done but not very subtle.") comes close to what the Hurwitzer said about it:


"The performance of La Mer is more interesting [than the Mahler Second], when it isn't simply weird. Among Abbado's ideas: an evident attempt to minimize the impact of the big brass choral as much as possible at the ends of both the first and third movements. He entirely ignores Debussy's dynamics in the first-movement lead-in (no crescendo from brass, timpani, and suspended cymbals, and strangely loud upper woodwinds). The big final crescendo is so loud and vulgar that it sounds like another piece, but it has to be said that it's also very exciting."

Those two capsule reviews do not make me want to rush out and buy it. But you guys loved it? You like loud, vulgar, brassless Debussy?    Well, maybe I do need to hear it myself. The lack of brass will surely disappoint me though.

Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

Cleveland in two of the Top Five places!  Not surprising 

My well-known allergy to Abbado's Mahler has kept me from hearing his Lucerne La Mer. Discoble's criticism ("....the strange trumpets absence at the end of the first movement....very artificial, very beautiful but lacking the spirit...reminds me of Strauss tone poems more than of French music. Well done but not very subtle.") comes close to what the Hurwitzer said about it:


"The performance of La Mer is more interesting [than the Mahler Second], when it isn't simply weird. Among Abbado's ideas: an evident attempt to minimize the impact of the big brass choral as much as possible at the ends of both the first and third movements. He entirely ignores Debussy's dynamics in the first-movement lead-in (no crescendo from brass, timpani, and suspended cymbals, and strangely loud upper woodwinds). The big final crescendo is so loud and vulgar that it sounds like another piece, but it has to be said that it's also very exciting."

Those two capsule reviews do not make me want to rush out and buy it. But you guys loved it? You like loud, vulgar, brassless Debussy?    Well, maybe I do need to hear it myself. The lack of brass will surely disappoint me though.

Sarge

You can see for yourself on youtube (as well as the Mahler I posted above): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyoM2UqdYOE. Personally,I think it works, but if you think it should sound a certain way, I'm not sure you will like it. It is true that there is restraint, where others let go earlier, but I think it adds to the impact all the more when it finally comes (it also differentiates it).

Still, I think I might have preferred the Bernstein and Karajan above it. The Bernstein was just wicked in every way - that's the one I would get first.  And if you look at only GMG votes, Bernstein would have beaten E1, the eventual winner, in the previous round.

However, I have noticed that GMG opinion differs quite a bit. The final results from GMG would not put E1 first, but rather G4 (Abbado). For me, above all in importance, was the connection to the sea. As long as I felt this was maintained, I was willing to overlook a lot of things I might not normally overlook (for example, I am normally a stickler for playing in tune and not making mistakes, but impressionistic music should be judged by a different criteria in my opinion). Boulez (C3), for example (and in my opinion), utterly and totally fails in this. I would argue that it is he who is vulgar and fails to capture the spirit of the piece.  With the same reasoning, it does not disturb me that the Tabachnik version (H4) has some technical moments, because for me the sweep of the brush (so to speak) is of more importance (and he is quite effective).

[Sergeant Rock]

Still, I think I might have preferred the Bernstein and Karajan above it. The Bernstein was just wicked in every way - that's the one I would get first.

Already have Bernstein, both his recordings actually: New York and the more expansive Santa Cecilia (on DG). Since I tend to like La Mer more broadly paced (Giulini, Sinopoli....Celibidache  ), I actually prefer the DG. Of the Top Five I don't have Ashkenazy (which I've ordered) or, not surprisingly, Tabachnik..who'd have guessed? 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Viz. brassless . . . do I surmise correctly that this is a matter of a muted trumpet fanfare figure which, after (or at about the time of) the première, someone pointed out to Debussy as being similar to a patch of Dukas? So that Debussy simply struck that bit out, although not a few conductors since have 'restored' it.

[mc ukrneal]

Already have Bernstein, both his recordings actually: New York and the more expansive Santa Cecilia (on DG). Since I tend to like La Mer more broadly paced (Giulini, Sinopoli....Celibidache  ), I actually prefer the DG. Of the Top Five I don't have Ashkenazy (which I've ordered) or, not surprisingly, Tabachnik..who'd have guessed? 

Sarge

Should have guessed you'd have them all! Tabachnik was a major surprise. But a quite pleasant one too.

Viz. brassless . . . do I surmise correctly that this is a matter of a muted trumpet fanfare figure which, after (or at about the time of) the première, someone pointed out to Debussy as being similar to a patch of Dukas? So that Debussy simply struck that bit out, although not a few conductors since have 'restored' it.

That's a good point. For the first few times, I actually thought it was a mistake (despite liking it), but then read up on it and realized it was meant to be that way. Like it or dislike, the difference in impact is quite significant.

[Drasko]

Viz. brassless . . . do I surmise correctly that this is a matter of a muted trumpet fanfare figure which, after (or at about the time of) the première, someone pointed out to Debussy as being similar to a patch of Dukas? So that Debussy simply struck that bit out, although not a few conductors since have 'restored' it.

No, it isn't that. This is the question of Abbado's balancing of winds and brass in first movement's final climax. I even remember when the disc was released, M first called it for delaying the brass entry in the crescendo, exposing the winds.   

[Sergeant Rock]

Viz. brassless . . . do I surmise correctly that this is a matter of a muted trumpet fanfare figure which, after (or at about the time of) the première, someone pointed out to Debussy as being similar to a patch of Dukas? So that Debussy simply struck that bit out, although not a few conductors since have 'restored' it.

The brass parts that were removed are in the last movement, yes? I don't think that's what Hurwitz meant, and Discoble specifically mentions the first movement. But I could be wrong. If it really is matter of edition, then Abbado can be forgiven. If not, damn him 

Edit: I see Drasko cleared it up.

Sarge