21st century classical music

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I, too, have noticed the 'swimmy' aesthetic, and although I enjoy much of the music it would be good to have some more variety. Orchestral music being so time consuming to compose (not to mention the fact that symphony orchestras are much more in the 'mainstream' than, say, JACK Quartet) may simply result in composers falling back on patterns they know work for them and also have some similarity with other recent repertoire........probably owing to less of an idiosyncratic sound. I feel like somehow it has always been like that. A Beethoven symphony might sound a lot closer to an Arriaga symphony than a Beethoven string quartet sounds to an Arriaga string quartet.

[San Antone]

I generally think that new chamber music is more interesting than orchestral.  Unless the orchestra is used a several chamber groups.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Wolfgang Mitterer wrote some pretty nice orchestral music such as Crush 1-5 (I have been listening to a lot recently and mentioned quite a number of times on GMG) and this piano concerto. His music certainly has 'swimmy' in its sound although I feel like there is a lot more going on with the way he explores sound than just that swimmy stuff.......................

https://www.youtube.com/v/rp2TSnudBa0

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I generally think that new chamber music is more interesting than orchestral.  Unless the orchestra is used a several chamber groups.

I agree. It is also a lot more fun to watch being performed and to compose................ (solo music is its own composition challenge that is way more difficult than chamber)

[North Star]

Wolfgang Mitterer wrote some pretty nice orchestral music such as

Why past tense?

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Why past tense?

He finished writing the orchestral pieces I mentioned.

But of course, he is still actively composing!

[You did it]

Claus-Steffen Mahnkopf, Richard Barrett and John Zorn are three of my favorite current living composers 

I would be tempted to say Murail but I actually haven't any of his most recent works...

[San Antone]

https://www.youtube.com/v/eFABMipJtns

Georg Friedrich Haas - RELEASE (for ensemble) (2017)

[San Antone]

https://www.youtube.com/v/7fvCAM-eTUg

Mark Andre - durch (w/ score) (for saxophone, percussion and piano) (2004/5)

[San Antone]

https://www.youtube.com/v/0uZTkCBOSTU

Nina C. Young - Memento Mori

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

https://www.youtube.com/v/7fvCAM-eTUg

Mark Andre - durch (w/ score) (for saxophone, percussion and piano) (2004/5)

Great great great piece really fantastic. And also available on an amazing release from Kairos nine years ago



(the image is a link to where you can get the disc)

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

More on the topic of orchestral aesthetics, what do you lot think of this?

https://www.youtube.com/v/yRtdpaArnNM

[Crudblud]

A Beethoven symphony might sound a lot closer to an Arriaga symphony than a Beethoven string quartet sounds to an Arriaga string quartet.

This makes me wonder if the orchestra has more universal and durable aesthetic trends owing to its occupying a more "public" space than standardised chamber ensembles. I don't know if this is true or not, but I had always understood that Beethoven wrote his symphonies for the public and his quartets for a more exclusive audience, and when I read the quote above it made me think that maybe an inherited sense of purpose or function (i.e.: to communicate broadly), compounded over generations and eras, is part of what makes that distinction between spaces occupied true—if it is true*. Is the orchestra as a medium for grand public statements traceable back to Beethoven or does it go further back? I wonder furthermore if the sheer number of people working together as a single unit encourages or even necessitates this "publicness"; is it possible to create something for such a unit without the implicit aiming for grand statement? Probably. How did I get here?

*I think this is the point where I lost the thread of whatever it is I was talking about

More on the topic of orchestral aesthetics, what do you lot think of this?

I like this much better than the Ammann piece, but I'm not sure I could accurately explain why. Perhaps because this one feels like a more focused exploration of an idea, like beneath the flashy exterior displays there is a core driving the thing, where Glut felt like it was meandering on the surface level. This piece has motifs, or at least things that can operate as motifs recurring in different timbrel guises at steady intervals, maintaining a strong sense of continuity. There is a completeness to it, its constituent parts integrate and support each other.

[San Antone]

String quartet by Dieter Ammann, 2009

https://www.youtube.com/v/fDffovMgs2s

Ammann: "Geborstener Satz casalQuartett"

[San Antone]

Duet for clarinet and flute by Dieter Ammann: "Cute"

https://www.youtube.com/v/3VJlv2gla94

Marion Aruvee, flutes
Helena Tuuling, clarinets

[San Antone]

Gérard Pesson :: Quatuor à cordes №.2 "Bitume"

https://www.youtube.com/v/4cBhYTCF_M0

Starts out slowly but around 7'30" starts to get really interesting.

[San Antone]

Marina Poleukhina :: in its own tempo

https://www.youtube.com/v/Scez-mVZofY

Like this one.

[Cato]

I feel like I've been hearing many pieces exactly like this whenever I look up 21st century orchestral stuff on YouTube. Has this "swimmy" aesthetic been in fashion for several decades now or do I just have a tin ear for what's new?

Here is the antidote!

Karl Henning's Out in the Sun


https://www.youtube.com/v/n-95rYkIbmE

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

This makes me wonder if the orchestra has more universal and durable aesthetic trends owing to its occupying a more "public" space than standardised chamber ensembles. I don't know if this is true or not, but I had always understood that Beethoven wrote his symphonies for the public and his quartets for a more exclusive audience, and when I read the quote above it made me think that maybe an inherited sense of purpose or function (i.e.: to communicate broadly), compounded over generations and eras, is part of what makes that distinction between spaces occupied true—if it is true*. Is the orchestra as a medium for grand public statements traceable back to Beethoven or does it go further back? I wonder furthermore if the sheer number of people working together as a single unit encourages or even necessitates this "publicness"; is it possible to create something for such a unit without the implicit aiming for grand statement? Probably. How did I get here?

*I think this is the point where I lost the thread of whatever it is I was talking about

This is my understanding too. Pretty much spot on.

I like this much better than the Ammann piece, but I'm not sure I could accurately explain why. Perhaps because this one feels like a more focused exploration of an idea, like beneath the flashy exterior displays there is a core driving the thing, where Glut felt like it was meandering on the surface level. This piece has motifs, or at least things that can operate as motifs recurring in different timbrel guises at steady intervals, maintaining a strong sense of continuity. There is a completeness to it, its constituent parts integrate and support each other.

Yes, and I think her music has been described by some as post-minimalist (rather a funny term really). It seems like a good description if we were to use it to describe music that really takes an in-depth look at an idea without taking any of the 'minimalist' (process music?) tropes. On the whole it certainly sounds nothing whatsoever like the process music of the 60s and 70s........I don't know why I made the comparison..........

But yes, a piece having a 'driving core' rather than only existing at the surface would have a greater chance to hold someone's interest anyway. I didn't listen to all of Glut but I was surprised when Erosioon had already finished because of how the consistency sort of played around with my sense of time.

[Crudblud]

Yes, and I think her music has been described by some as post-minimalist (rather a funny term really). It seems like a good description if we were to use it to describe music that really takes an in-depth look at an idea without taking any of the 'minimalist' (process music?) tropes. On the whole it certainly sounds nothing whatsoever like the process music of the 60s and 70s........I don't know why I made the comparison..........

But yes, a piece having a 'driving core' rather than only existing at the surface would have a greater chance to hold someone's interest anyway. I didn't listen to all of Glut but I was surprised when Erosioon had already finished because of how the consistency sort of played around with my sense of time.

"Post-minimalism" I have only really heard in reference to John Adams, and the later works of Reich and Glass, maybe Arvo Pärt could lay some claim to that as well, though I doubt he would want to. It seems a rather stigmatising label, like "serialism". But the perspective on the term you outline also makes sense, at least on a surface level. I would perhaps say "post-spectralism" if it must be post-anything (broadly speaking we may be "post-movement" entirely, at least for the time being), but then I am just referring back to my experience with Grisey (specifically Les éspaces acoustiques) and marking coincidences in the sound of parts of both pieces. This is also my first time hearing Tally, so I don't really have a grasp of where she comes from musically. I see from Estonian Wikipedia that she has composed quite a lot of stuff over the past 20 years, I will definitely be exploring her work further.

I think a piece that has such a core, even if it is initially obscure (it certainly is not obscure in Erosioon, everything is very clear in its reference to and reinforcement of a central idea, and without being simplistic about it), will sound "right" because the core is the wellspring of everything on the surface. Glut has plenty of nice moments, but aside from their being tacked together (this is crude, Ammann goes to great lengths to blend rather than tack, but the effect of one pretty thing after another over and over remains the same) there just doesn't seem to be anything holding it together on a fundamental level. Tally uses only a handful of different types of gesture in Erosioon, and the pace and patterns of their recurrence sustain an atmosphere, a sense of a single moment in time, it shows a great deal of sensitivity and craft on the composer's part.