21st century classical music

[torut]

Romitelli has his own thread, btw.

Thank you, I will check it.

There are also two Bryars's threads. They should be combined, as requested in the thread.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18734.0.html
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22919.0.html

Is the composer index no longer maintained?

[torut]

Yes - there is some rock inspired classical music I also have problems with, for me mostly when rock rhythms are involved like e.g. I did not like the piece Magma from Erkki Sven Tür for that reason. But there are certainly some quite successful examples of use of electric guitars in classical pieces - Branca (as you said), Rhys Chatham, but also Schnittke, Zimmermann, Penderecki and Stockhausen (Gruppen) come to my mind.

I didn't become to like Chatham's guitar works, but I will try them again. I read a book which tells that he has a conflict with Branca regarding the precedence of the guitar ensemble using overtones.

Zimmermann

Do you mean Walter Zimmermann? I like his string quartet, but I don't hear the influence of rock. Is there a work you recommend?

[North Star]

Thank you, I will check it.

There are also two Bryars's threads. They should be combined, as requested in the thread.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18734.0.html
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22919.0.html

Is the composer index no longer maintained?

You neglected to mention who it was that requested the combining
I don't know how much the mods have done with the index after Lethe left us. 

[torut]

You neglected to mention who it was that requested the combining
I don't know how much the mods have done with the index after Lethe left us. 

I apologize for not acknowledging it. It's unfortunate since the index is very useful.

BTW, on September 30 Irritable Hedgehog will release a new album of Jürg Frey, Pianist, Alone, played by R. Andrew Lee. The second part can be listened to on the web site. I immediately pre-ordered it, and I am now listening to the 2nd disc.

http://recordings.irritablehedgehog.com/album/j-rg-frey-pianist-alone



I love his music a lot. One of the best Wandelweiser composers, imo. You can listen to this previous album.
http://recordings.irritablehedgehog.com/album/j-rg-frey-piano-music

[chadfeldheimer]

Have you heard Gavin Bryars' work After the Requiem? Wonderful use of electric guitar.

https://www.youtube.com/v/K3WPJRwZ5pU

No - I do only know his probably most popular works 'Sinking of the Titanic' and 'Jesus' Blood Never Failed Me Yet' and like both of em quite well. But I'll check it out on occasion. Unfortunately I cannot open your link here in Germany due to music rights conflicts.

[chadfeldheimer]

I didn't become to like Chatham's guitar works, but I will try them again. I read a book which tells that he has a conflict with Branca regarding the precedence of the guitar ensemble using overtones.

I don't know much of Chathams works but the works contained on the CD 'Die Donnergötter' are all quite nice. His overtone rich guitar-minimalism indeed has many similarities to what Branca did around the same time, but it has it's own signature sound. However I can imagine there was quite a competition between both of them, in which case conflicts are quite probable.

Do you mean Walter Zimmermann? I like his string quartet, but I don't hear the influence of rock. Is there a work you recommend?

No - I meant Bernd Alois Zimmermann who has an electric guitar in his opera 'die Soldaten' but also in other works I think. The use of electric guitar in this case however is rather avantgardistic and not very rock like.
Walter Zimmermann I still have to discover. I read a very positive review on the CD with his Songs of Innocence & Experience performed by the Sonar Quartet.

[torut]

I don't know much of Chathams works but the works contained on the CD 'Die Donnergötter' are all quite nice. His overtone rich guitar-minimalism indeed has many similarities to what Branca did around the same time, but it has it's own signature sound. However I can imagine there was quite a competition between both of them, in which case conflicts are quite probable.

Die Donnergötter is OOP, so I listened to some of the tracks on youtube. They are nice, but the rhythms and beats of the drums sound a little outdated to me. I'll get the album if I have a chance.
Instead, I purchased A Crimson Grail for 400 Electric Guitars, which was easily available for download. There is no prominent drums, and it is more reminiscent of Branca's symphony (without drums) or La Monte Young's drones. An amazing, massive work.

Rhys Chatham - Crimson Grail for 400 Electric Guitars (recorded 2005, Table Of The Elements)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0WaNVgJqCU

(There is another version for 200 electric guitars released on Nonsuch in 2010.)

No - I meant Bernd Alois Zimmermann who has an electric guitar in his opera 'die Soldaten' but also in other works I think. The use of electric guitar in this case however is rather avantgardistic and not very rock like.
Walter Zimmermann I still have to discover. I read a very positive review on the CD with his Songs of Innocence & Experience performed by the Sonar Quartet.

I highly recommend Songs of Innocence & Experience of Walter Zimmermann. Based on folk songs, the music reminded me of Cage's melodies & harmonies, which is based on old hymns and chorales. He compiled Morton Feldman's essays, so I guess he is sympathetic to New York School composers.

I'll try Bernd Alois Zimmermann. I remember that I have a recording of his Symphony in One Movement.

[chadfeldheimer]

Die Donnergötter is OOP, so I listened to some of the tracks on youtube. They are nice, but the rhythms and beats of the drums sound a little outdated to me. I'll get the album if I have a chance.
Instead, I purchased A Crimson Grail for 400 Electric Guitars, which was easily available for download. There is no prominent drums, and it is more reminiscent of Branca's symphony (without drums) or La Monte Young's drones. An amazing, massive work.

Rhys Chatham - Crimson Grail for 400 Electric Guitars (recorded 2005, Table Of The Elements)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0WaNVgJqCU

(There is another version for 200 electric guitars released on Nonsuch in 2010.)

400 guitars? That's truly a massive work? My first impression from hearing it on youtube is also very well. It has a very ambient like feel to it, but with the warm rich sounds of "real", analog instruments. What puzzles me is that sometimes I think to hear a choir in the background.

I highly recommend Songs of Innocence & Experience of Walter Zimmermann. Based on folk songs, the music reminded me of Cage's melodies & harmonies, which is based on old hymns and chorales. He compiled Morton Feldman's essays, so I guess he is sympathetic to New York School composers.

I will check him out. Read about his strong adoration for Morton Feldman. Maybe that was the reason for me not to try him earlier - because I thought he was not self-contained enough.

I'll try Bernd Alois Zimmermann. I remember that I have a recording of his Symphony in One Movement.

I don't know the symphony, but I like many of his later works like his opera "die Soldaten", " Musique pour les soupers du Roi Ubu" or his concert for violoncello and orchstra very much.

[torut]

400 guitars? That's truly a massive work? My first impression from hearing it on youtube is also very well. It has a very ambient like feel to it, but with the warm rich sounds of "real", analog instruments. What puzzles me is that sometimes I think to hear a choir in the background.

I heard that too. Similar effect can be heard in Charlemagne Palestine's Strumming Music and Ellen Fullman's Long String. I suppose that is because particular sound spectrum created by the way of playing the instruments resembles that of human voices. It's quite beautifule at times, almost ethereal. I wonder if the composers purposedly composed the works in order to create that effect, or it's just a side effect. There are a lot more things happening in this kind of music which I could barely grasp, but it sounds very good.

[chadfeldheimer]

I heard that too. Similar effect can be heard in Charlemagne Palestine's Strumming Music and Ellen Fullman's Long String. I suppose that is because particular sound spectrum created by the way of playing the instruments resembles that of human voices. It's quite beautifule at times, almost ethereal. I wonder if the composers purposedly composed the works in order to create that effect, or it's just a side effect. There are a lot more things happening in this kind of music which I could barely grasp, but it sounds very good.

Yes - I also think it is from the particular sound spectrum created by the sheer number and the special tuning of the guitars. Could imagine this effect is created by purpose. Yes very beautiful.

[7/4]

What puzzles me is that sometimes I think to hear a choir in the background.

There's a name for that: Combination tones aka sum and difference tones.

I heard that too. Similar effect can be heard in Charlemagne Palestine's Strumming Music and Ellen Fullman's Long String. I suppose that is because particular sound spectrum created by the way of playing the instruments resembles that of human voices. It's quite beautiful at times, almost ethereal. I wonder if the composers purposely composed the works in order to create that effect, or it's just a side effect. There are a lot more things happening in this kind of music which I could barely grasp, but it sounds very good.

Both!

[torut]

There's a name for that: Combination tones aka sum and difference tones.

Both!

I understand "beat" but didn't know these. It seems fairly complex if composers consider and calculate the effects of these factors (intermodulation distortion caused by the inner ear, neural phenomenon, etc.) without help of computer. Maybe empirically trivial to trained composers and musicians, though.

[7/4]

I understand "beat" but didn't know these. It seems fairly complex if composers consider and calculate the effects of these factors (intermodulation distortion caused by the inner ear, neural phenomenon, etc.) without help of computer. Maybe empirically trivial to trained composers and musicians, though.

It becomes complex when the music is complex, otherwise sum and difference tones are simple math.

[chadfeldheimer]

It becomes complex when the music is complex, otherwise sum and difference tones are simple math.

I think torut meant, that it might be complex to use that musical/mathematical means of combination tones in such a manner that guitars sound like a chorus. Or is there a well known musical/mathematical model for the sounds created by a chorus?

[EigenUser]

I think torut meant, that it might be complex to use that musical/mathematical means of combination tones in such a manner that guitars sound like a chorus. Or is there a well known musical/mathematical model for the sounds created by a chorus?

I'm not sure. I am taking an engineering math class right now and we'll study the wave equation in a month or so (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_equation). I know the professor very well and the two of us often talk about classical music, so I'll ask him next time I get the chance. I assume it isn't mathematically complicated, though I'm not sure. I might even have seen the mathematical concept already, but I'm just not connecting the math with the music.

[chadfeldheimer]

I'm not sure. I am taking an engineering math class right now and we'll study the wave equation in a month or so (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_equation). I know the professor very well and the two of us often talk about classical music, so I'll ask him next time I get the chance. I assume it isn't mathematically complicated, though I'm not sure. I might even have seen the mathematical concept already, but I'm just not connecting the math with the music.

Well I also have a natural scientific background and also had to study signal theory and wave-equations. The German term for combination tones in physics is "Schwebung", as per Wikipedia the English term is "beat" (?!). I agree - in terms of pure mathematics that might not be too difficult. The difficulty I see is setting up the equations (or notes) for the special task that a number of guitars should sound like a choir and sounds good thereby.

That's maybe also a misunderstanding regarding "stochastic music" as you can find in some pieces from Xenakis. Many people think you just have to feed a computer with some arbitrary equations and a score for piece of music comes out. I am sure it is not that simple and that you must have a clear vision of the piece and also a deep knowledge which mathematical means yields to which effect to compose a really rewarding composition as Xenakis did so often.

[EigenUser]

Well I also have a natural scientific background and also had to study signal theory and wave-equations. The German term for combination tones in physics is "Schwebung", as per Wikipedia the English term is "beat" (?!). I agree - in terms of pure mathematics that might not be too difficult. The difficulty I see is setting up the equations (or notes) for the special task that a number of guitars should sound like a choir and sounds good thereby.

That's maybe also a misunderstanding regarding "stochastic music" as you can find in some pieces from Xenakis. Many people think you just have to feed a computer with some arbitrary equations and a score for piece of music comes out. I am sure it is not that simple and that you must have a clear vision of the piece and also a deep knowledge which mathematical means yields to which effect to compose a really rewarding composition as Xenakis did so often.

Yeah, I was wondering if the term sum/difference tones is just a musical word for the "beating" phenomenon that you get when two very close frequencies are played simultaneously. Or, if it is something totally different (which I suspect).

[torut]

Yeah, I was wondering if the term sum/difference tones is just a musical word for the "beating" phenomenon that you get when two very close frequencies are played simultaneously. Or, if it is something totally different (which I suspect).

According to the article 7/4 linked, they are different. "Beat" is a physical phenomenon of acoustic waves. The "missing fundamental" can be heard when many overtones of the missing fundamental tone are presented by 2 tones of a just fifth with harmonics. Therefore it is a psychological phenomenon. "Tartini tones" (sum and difference tones) are the result of intermodulation distortion caused by the non-linearity of the inner ear, so it is physical but only human can hear (cannot be measured by a spectrum analyzer.) However, there is another neural phenomenon that cause a difference tone, which these cannot explain.

Each phenomenon may be explained well, and the direct effects (sum or difference) are simple. But if a work of music is made incorporating these phenomena in order to create complex aural perceptions (the subtle sounds like chorus may be one of them), it is a complex work of composition. (I guess that's what 7/4 meant?)

It is interesting to me how much each composer "calculates" such effects. Some may just rely on their experience and know-how, and some deliberately design every aspect of a composition, sometimes using computer to analyze the sound? Regarding Xenaxis chadfeldheimer mentioned, I read somewhere that he used mathematics (group theory etc.) to compose the works (or a computer program that generates the sounds), but someone said it's pseudo-mathematics. In any case, he should have had a clear vision, since his outputs have consistent characteristics.

[torut]

Coincidentally, I was reading Gann's book and just found this.

Regarding Mary Jane Leach, "These pieces, including 4B.C. (1984) for four bass clarinets (three on tape) and Feu de Joie for eight bassoons (1992), take advantage of carefully calculated psychoacoustic phenomena of beats, difference tones, and combination tones, employing pitches not exactly in tune." (American Music in the Twentieth Century, Kyle Gann)

"MARY JANE LEACH is a composer/performer whose work reveals a fascination with the physicality of sound, its acoustic properties and how they interact with space. In many of her works Leach creates an other-worldly sound environment using difference, combination, and interference tones; these are tones not actually sounded by the performers, but acoustic phenomena arising from her deft manipulation of intonation and timbral qualities. The result is striking music which has a powerful effect on listeners." (http://www.mjleach.com/)

https://www.youtube.com/v/UTtIal6Fh9Y
4BC (1984) is for four bass clarinets playing in a small range (a fifth) emphasizing the third partial. It is written for the partials as well as the fundamentals, creating combination and difference tones.

Also this one for thread duty.
Dowland's Tears (2011) for 10 flutes
https://www.youtube.com/v/mIXJLadUv_c

[7/4]

Yeah, I was wondering if the term sum/difference tones is just a musical word for the "beating" phenomenon that you get when two very close frequencies are played simultaneously. Or, if it is something totally different (which I suspect).

Something different.

I hear beats when I tune two guitar strings to the same harmonic and they're not the same pitch yet. The beating goes away when they're in tune. (one example)

A summation tone is created when pitch 1 + pitch b creates a third pitch (pitch c).