The Wagner-Dippers

[knight66]

I do dip, anything from a disc of orchestral extracts to an entire act. But as has been implied, one act of Wagner is as long as say all of Tosca, so hardly a case of sampling restlessly; more about time management.

Mike

[nico1616]

I do dip, anything from a disc of orchestral extracts to an entire act. But as has been implied, one act of Wagner is as long as say all of Tosca, so hardly a case of sampling restlessly; more about time management.

Mike

And in 30 minutes of Tosca, there is immensely more going on than than in 30 minutes of Wagner.
The Ring lasts 14 hours, how many hours are used to recapitulate the story so far? Wagner seemed to have all the time in the world.
Just my two cents 

[Karl Henning]

I do dip, anything from a disc of orchestral extracts to an entire act. But as has been implied, one act of Wagner is as long as say all of Tosca, so hardly a case of sampling restlessly; more about time management.

Wisdom.

[Elgarian]

And in 30 minutes of Tosca, there is immensely more going on than than in 30 minutes of Wagner.
The Ring lasts 14 hours, how many hours are used to recapitulate the story so far? Wagner seemed to have all the time in the world.
Just my two cents 

But the same could be said about any activity that one doesn't much enjoy. If I were forced to watch a football match, I'd be gnawing my arm off in boredom before the end, and might remark on the almost complete lack of incident - to the incomprehension of those who love the game.

[nico1616]

But the same could be said about any activity that one doesn't much enjoy. If I were forced to watch a football match, I'd be gnawing my arm off in boredom before the end, and might remark on the almost complete lack of incident - to the incomprehension of those who love the game.

That is of course true. I respect Wagner as a genius and can enjoy a great deal of his work. I even would call myself a (moderate) fan.
In this topic, I think it is the place to say that some 'longueurs' bother me, take Wotan's monolog in act 2 of die Walküre or Tristan who keeps on dying in Act 3. You have to be a die-hard fan if you do not have the urge to skip some minutes of those, I think...

[Karl Henning]

Alternatively, I have occasional visions of an Outer Limits episode, a ship commanded by aliens of unknown motivations, plucking earthmen out of body to dip their souls in Das Rheingold.

[Elgarian]

In this topic, I think it is the place to say that some 'longueurs' bother me, take Wotan's monolog in act 2 of die Walküre ...

Bearing in mind that I am myself a self-confessed incorrigible dipper, I'm not in the position of being able to declare that the Ring needs to be swallowed whole. But my experience of repeated returnings to the Ring over decades is that progressively less of it has seemed as long-winded as it appeared at first. So my first impulse, if I find myself squirming in my seat, is to suppose that - for whatever reason, temporary or permanent - I'm not listening with adequate attention. (Sometimes my state of mind is such that I'd pay money not to listen to Wagner!)

I'm aware that this may seem naively accommodating on my part, and it may be; but it's justified (for me) through personal experience on the one hand, and on my general approach to all art on the other, which is to try to give it the benefit of the doubt unless I have a very good reason to cease doing that. Of course sometimes I just declare life to be too short to persevere further, and pull the plug; but that leaves the question open rather than resolved.

[Leon]

As a self confessed and incorrigible dipper, I do not find Wotan's monologue in act 2 of die Walküre over-long.  In fact that is one of his operas that I managed to watch completely - however, over the course of a week, one act at a time.  I simply cannot fathom that there are so many people able to withstand a complete opera of his in one sitting!

They must be mad!

[Karl Henning]

"You loved me when I told it all out the first time. When I repeat myself, I'm gonna knock you out!" — Wagner to his audience

[Elgarian]

I simply cannot fathom that there are so many people able to withstand a complete opera of his in one sitting!

They must be mad!

I found it quite easy to do when I was in my twenties, when there seemed to be all the time in the world. There was a touch of obsession, perhaps, but not madness. There was something about steeping myself in the vastness of the thing that seemed an important part of the listening process. These days, when the available time grows subjectively shorter by the year, it's rare that I listen to (or watch) more than one Act at a time, but I feel that I know the whole well enough by now to be able to 'feel it all around me', as it were.  That sounds a bit fluffy and New Age-ish, but I think it really just arises inevitably from a long history of listenings.

Concerning Wotan's monologue in Act 2 of Walkure, John Culshaw has written an interesting commentary on it which I found helpful.* He points out that the 20-minute monologue is 'the heart of the opera'. It's not merely a retelling of 'the story so far', but a key to the change in Wotan, in the process of transforming from the remote god to a more fragile and vulnerable character with whom we can empathise and indeed identify with. It's important, he argues, to follow the words particularly carefully in that long and quiet passage. Well worth reading what Culshaw says on this.

* Reflections on Wagner's Ring (1976), pp. 26-27

[nico1616]

I found it quite easy to do when I was in my twenties, when there seemed to be all the time in the world. There was a touch of obsession, perhaps, but not madness. There was something about steeping myself in the vastness of the thing that seemed an important part of the listening process. These days, when the available time grows subjectively shorter by the year, it's rare that I listen to (or watch) more than one Act at a time, but I feel that I know the whole well enough by now to be able to 'feel it all around me', as it were.  That sounds a bit fluffy and New Age-ish, but I think it really just arises inevitably from a long history of listenings.

Concerning Wotan's monologue in Act 2 of Walkure, John Culshaw has written an interesting commentary on it which I found helpful.* He points out that the 20-minute monologue is 'the heart of the opera'. It's not merely a retelling of 'the story so far', but a key to the change in Wotan, in the process of transforming from the remote god to a more fragile and vulnerable character with whom we can empathise and indeed identify with. It's important, he argues, to follow the words particularly carefully in that long and quiet passage. Well worth reading what Culshaw says on this.

* Reflections on Wagner's Ring (1976), pp. 26-27

To me, liking Wotan's monologue (is it only 20 minutes?) is a question of heart or mind. My mind knows that every bar of music that Wagner wrote is a stroke of genius.
There are so many specialists who wrote books about it. Even if I understand only a fraction of them, it leaves me baffled about the complexity of the Ring. It is really unbelievable that a human was capable of creating such a work of art!
My mind knows the Ring is one of the greatest works ever written, but the heart will not always follow.

It is like choosing between Handel and Bach. Bach will surely be the greater composer, but I find so much more pleasure in the frivolous Handel...

[Sergeant Rock]

To me, liking Wotan's monologue (is it only 20 minutes?)

Depends on the performance. I listened to Adam/Janowski/Dresden this afternoon. The timing is 13:40 from "Als junger Lust mir verblich." If you include the three line introduction, add another minute. I don't find it boring or a trial at all. As Culshaw (and Elgarian) say, it's the heart of the Ring. It explains everything. And I believe the music works too.

For me, the one significant bit of Wagner that makes me hit the fast forward button is King Mark's monologue in Tristan after he discovers the lovers. Of course it's important we understand Mark's conflicted feelings at this point, but, heavens, the music is so boring and, dramatically, the scene just comes to a complete standstill.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Depends on the performance. I listened to Adam/Janowski/Dresden this afternoon. The timing is 13:40 from "Als junger Lust mir verblich." If you include the three line introduction, add another minute. I don't find it boring or a trial at all. As Culshaw (and Elgarian) say, it's the heart of the Ring. It explains everything. And I believe the music works too.

When next I dip, I must make a point of that destination.

[kishnevi]

Depends on the performance. I listened to Adam/Janowski/Dresden this afternoon. The timing is 13:40 from "Als junger Lust mir verblich." If you include the three line introduction, add another minute. I don't find it boring or a trial at all. As Culshaw (and Elgarian) say, it's the heart of the Ring. It explains everything. And I believe the music works too.

For me, the one significant bit of Wagner that makes me hit the fast forward button is King Mark's monologue in Tristan after he discovers the lovers. Of course it's important we understand Mark's conflicted feelings at this point, but, heavens, the music is so boring and, dramatically, the scene just comes to a complete standstill.

Sarge

But when you come down to it, T&I is (dramatically) an opera based on a series of complete standstills interrupted by spurts of action.   Think of how little actually happens in that act .  The lovers meet and sing an extended duet which springs out of the idea that the night should go on forever, with some interruptions from Brangane reminding them that's not a real possibility;  then the action involved in Mark's discovery of the lovers together;  then Mark's monologue.    And the majority of Act III is devoted to Tristan singing himself to death;  the melee accompanying the arrival of Mark;  and the Isolde singing herself to death.   And Act I is not really anything more dramatic, except there we have the hero and heroine arguing and sneering at each other until they drink the potion.

It helps of course that I'm not particularly down on the musical aspect of Mark's monologue.

[Sergeant Rock]

But when you come down to it, T&I is (dramatically) an opera based on a series of complete standstills interrupted by spurts of action.   Think of how little actually happens in that act .  The lovers meet and sing an extended duet which springs out of the idea that the night should go on forever, with some interruptions from Brangane reminding them that's not a real possibility;  then the action involved in Mark's discovery of the lovers together;  then Mark's monologue.    And the majority of Act III is devoted to Tristan singing himself to death;  the melee accompanying the arrival of Mark;  and the Isolde singing herself to death.   And Act I is not really anything more dramatic, except there we have the hero and heroine arguing and sneering at each other until they drink the potion.

Absolutely true    But what I meant actually is how that particular brief spurt of action (the King and Co bursting in on the lovers) suddenly stops, and everyone just holds their breath while Mark sings....forever....until the action starts again. It bothers me dramatically. Second guessing Wagner here, I'd have the fight play itself out and then, have Mark cry as the act ends in quiet despair.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

There was a fellow who could have benefited from an editor ; )

[madaboutmahler]

I imagine myself becoming a Wagner dipper. I have to admit that in my first listen to the Ring Cycle a few months ago, there were a few places where I wanted to press the fast-forward button, mostly in the incredibly long monologue scenes. Mainly as those sections are obviously more focused on the words than the music, and I can't understand German, and really could not follow the libretto! When it got to those moments, I looked at the score in front of me, skipped a few pages to glance at what was coming up, and thought 'Hurry Up! Get to this next tutti, it looks amazing!'. As it was my first listen, I didn't skip anything though.  0:)

What an amazing journey it was though. Certainly worth waiting through the... erm... less exciting.. parts!

Soon I'll probably start dipping into my favourite Ring Cycle scenes. Or maybe a whole act!

[Elgarian]

To me, liking Wotan's monologue (is it only 20 minutes?) is a question of heart or mind. My mind knows that every bar of music that Wagner wrote is a stroke of genius.
There are so many specialists who wrote books about it. Even if I understand only a fraction of them, it leaves me baffled about the complexity of the Ring. It is really unbelievable that a human was capable of creating such a work of art!
My mind knows the Ring is one of the greatest works ever written, but the heart will not always follow.

It is like choosing between Handel and Bach. Bach will surely be the greater composer, but I find so much more pleasure in the frivolous Handel...

That's one way of looking at it, and I can sympathise with it (especially with your comment about Handel and Bach). But if we're going to set up polarities of this sort to try to understand our responses (eg heart/mind), I think there are other polarities we might think about. In the case of Wagner, it might be useful to think of (drama/music). There are passages of Wagner where it mightn't matter in the slightest to me what was going on dramatically, because the music alone is so electrifying. (I don't say I can justify this in any critical sense; merely that sometimes I just react like that.) There are other times when the drama is so compelling that I almost miss what's going on in the music. And of course there are all sorts of in-between situations.

I'd maybe observe that when listening to the Wotan monologue in Valkyrie Act 2, it's absolutely crucial to keep a grip on what is unfolding dramatically. That doesn't mean the music is unimportant, but I don't think I'd be able to sustain an interest in it, separate from the drama. So it's a situation where the appropriate mind-set is pretty much essential. Certainly I found my whole attitude to it changed after reading Culshaw, just because he highlighted something important that I hadn't sufficiently absorbed, consciously, myself. (I can't see why, in hindsight, that I hadn't; but then the Ring is BIG and easy to get lost in, and I'm an Elgarian with a small brain who finds it easy to get lost.)

[Lisztianwagner]

I'm sorry, I want to make sure I've understood the meaning; what do you exactly mean with "Dipper"?

[Elgarian]

I'm sorry, I want to make sure I've understood the meaning; what do you exactly mean with "Dipper"?

He means by 'dipping', Ilaria, listening to the Ring in relatively small selected samples (eg one Act or in even smaller chunks), rather than listening to it in its entirety.