Blind Comparison: R.Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra

[TheGSMoeller]

B1 might be the oldest recording of Zarathustra ever recorded 

[TheGSMoeller]

B1 - An opening that stalls, no drive, the sixteenth notes are held way too long, a real snoozer of the Introduction. The 2nd section of the excerpt picked up speed and intensity, but very limited in sound quality, difficult to get an accurate feel and unfairly compared to some incredible digital accounts here where all the voices and instruments are audible, not here though.

B2 - Powerful opener, increased in size and strength, a little sloppy and lazy on the 16th-whole note transistion, but overall good first impression. The 2nd section is brimming with life, not overly rambunctious, but a little slow. Could have used a good pop when getting into Of Joys and Passions.

B3 - Brisk tempo, doesn't slow to accentuate, drives forward but never completely hits it out, not enough to jar the listener, but it is superbly played. The 2nd section lacks power, but flows beautifully and again aided by some wonderful playing from the orchestra, despite the opening dud the rest has turned out to be very well done.

B4 - Possible chills-inducing, perfect tempo with an incredible crispness from the orchestra, minor quip with the timpani sounding a bit puny and way too much triangle, but like I said, minor, this one has muscle. The 2nd section was on fire! Hasty and fierce, this performance of Of Joys and Passions could easily replace the battle section from Heldenleben.

B5 - Very middle of the road, but in a good way, nothing overly emphasized, balance is spot on, the intensity is there but won't rock you out of your chair. 2nd section has a nice display of the organ, which is always welcomed, continued to build with strong support from a confident orchestra. But still a little bland.

B6 - Wow, break that timpani!!! This is the most powerful opening of Zarathustra I've heard, not sure how to summarize it other than just listen and hold on. And for us score nerds, they get it right, the sixteenth note has the accent and the following whole note does not. The 2nd section shows some wonderful interpretation choices with phrasing and tempo, very mysterious, leading up to a lyrical Of Joys and Passions, a nice contrast considering the power of the intro, this section does however build into a forceful wallop. How is that timpani still together? 


This was a solid group, so different in their respective presentations. All were performed well, but all with different dramatic and visual offerings. I almost feel bad for B1, it's like the aging athlete who still, and always, will have that talent, but when up against the younger ones, their age and decaying body begins to take effect. I will say that I absolutely recognize one of them, and it's even one of my top choices, but there's a good chance it is getting beaten out by one I have not heard 
The results...

1. B6
2. B4
3. B5
4. B2
5. B3
6. B1

It was a tough choice between B6 and B4, but B6 just felt more in touch with the music and it's emotional impact, definitely more inclined to tell a story and to offer a musical depiction of human feelings.

[madaboutmahler]

That's the score I have too, Greg! Very interesting comments, thank you for posting!

How is that timpani still together? 

Plenty more of that to come!

Looking forward to hearing your comments, Brian!

At the moment, there are only 4 people in each of the groups (apart from A), so does anyone want to do a second group if you have the time?

[mc ukrneal]

That's the score I have too, Greg! Very interesting comments, thank you for posting!
Plenty more of that to come!

Looking forward to hearing your comments, Brian!

At the moment, there are only 4 in each of the groups (apart from A), so does anyone want to do a second group if you have the time?

Ok. I'll try to take one more group.

[madaboutmahler]

Ok. I'll try to take one more group.

Great - thanks, Neal! Will send you Group B now.

[Florestan]

A1 - Opening: At first timid, hesitating, as if afraid of waking someone up from their nap; timpani   
overstated, the orchestra understated; the climax good but not overwhelming and clearly disconnected from what precedes it; nice organ at the end.

              - Excerpts: the slow parts nicely done with some lyrical effects especially in the dialogue between the two strings towards the end; the fast parts rushed, as if the conductor said "All right, gentlemen, let's get the job done asap and go home!"; overall a feeling of disconnection and fragmentation, as if different sound layers were put one on the top of the other; devoid of any feeling or emotion.

              - Final assessment: a very mixed bag with more bad than good.

A2 - Opening: much better, bold and assertive; timpani beaten in desperation (I wonder if they were still any good after that...); organically following climax; impressive organ at the end.

              - Excerpts: a clear sense of menace and dark prophecy, rather compelling emotionally; the dialogue of the two strings drowned in a sea of unbalanced orchestral sound, lyrical effect ruined.

              - Final assessment: rather good.

A3 - Opening: majestic yet martial with a nice climax; organ sound too thick at the end.

              - Excerpts: light-hearted, even waltzy at times; reminds me more of Octavian than of Zarathustra; flowing, polished orchestral sound, no rough edges, no brusque transitions; all in all, a very  idiomatic reading.

              - Final assessment: good in its own way.

A4 - Opening: I suspect this is the farthest away from the score in terms of tempi and loudness in this batch but also the second best: fast, gripping and attention-catching, like a curtain rising over the drama of a human life.

              - Excerpts: dramatic to an end, with stark contrasts and aggressive transitions (and even an aggressive harp sound -- and to make a harp sound aggressive is a performance in itself methinks), the exact opposite of the previous one; very nicely balanced dialogue of the two strings over the orchestral mass.

              - Final assessment: excellent.

A5 - Opening: Very good this one too; the best organ sound of the whole lot, albeit I suspect somehow shorter than scored.

              - Excerpts: the best horns of the whole lot; the same overall approach as the previous one: dramatic, dark and heroic but with more bravura in the brass section; the two strings at the end dominating the orchestra make for a well-judged contrast.

              - Final assessment: excellent.

A6 - Opening: the most majestic and passionate of all; indeed thus spake Zarathustra: like a sunrise in all his splendor; the best of the whole lot.

              - Excerpts: this is half-way between the drama and excitement of A4 / A5 and the lightheartedness  of A3;  a very safe, well-balanced reading; If asked to name a good introductory record to ASZ I would say get this one.

              - Final assessment: very good.

My ranking:

1. A5
2. A4
3. A6
4. A2
5. A3
6. A1

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you for your vote and comments!

[zauberflöte]

The A Group.

I'm afraid none of these performances was really top drawer for me, though a couple, A2 and A5, I liked.

A1. I disliked the sound of the timpani, a bit too rubber-bandy "boing boing boing boing," to use a technical term, for my taste. And I didn't like the way the notes slid into each other at one point in the opening. One thing I did like, which upped its score for me, was that in the remaining clips the harp featured more prominently than I've ever heard in a performance of the piece before.
Not bad but not great.

A2 grew on me. At first I thought it was too magisterial, too pompous in the opening fanfare. That drawn out penultimate chord was too much, but I grew to like it. One thing that bothered me and I don't know if it's a glitch in the recording or the conductor's decision but it sounds like a split second at the end of the adrenalin-inducing "Great Longing" section is cut off, destroying the fade of the flutes. And it sounded like it was headed toward a memorable moment. I like that passage a lot; part of the reason A4  scored so low is that it sounds like they're not even trying there. Karajan's 1972 performance and Karl Bohm's performance, though different, both nail it.
A very technicolor performance. Not the way I usually hear Strauss, but in this case the best of a relatively weak bunch.

A3. Just no. Mjwal's term "brusque," puts it perfectly. No feel for drama. And that portamento in the "graveyard song" section. Yuk, to use another technical term.

A4 also didn't work for me. It wasn't just the mono sound, though the lack of depth was a problem. There were just too many things not working for me. The opening fanfare is decent enough but is then spoiled by that tinny toy cymbal crash at the end of it, made more noticeable because it comes in too early. Then the rest of the piece seems to take forever for to get going, like the players are stuck in molasses even though the tempos seem fine. I can't really explain it. That mono depth problem? It picks up a little toward the end, except for the lousy Great Longing climax mentioned earlier. But it has the opposite problem from A3 in that in Das Grablied there is no sense of weltschmerz, which you would think a graveyard might produce, unless I'm missing the point of that section.
It scores higher than A3 for me only because I have more to say about it than I do A3.

A5, LP pops and all, is the other one I like. It sounds like it could be Karajan's 1958 Decca recording Kubrick used in the movie, 2001.  I can't be sure because I only know the recording through the movie. The rest of the clips offered aren't bad, but if it IS the Karajan he improved between 1958 and his 1972 DG recording, one of my favorites. A5 has the homogenized sound of Karajan, plus the too-quick organ fade at the end of the opening recognizable from the film. The organ otherwise is great, just like in the movie. If it's not the Karajan, one of the conductors  imitated the other.

A6, a little but of a muddy opening, and why does it speed up toward the end of that opening? Otherwise, middle of the pack.


Ranking:

1. A2
2. A5
3. A1
4. A6
5. A4
6. A3

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you for that vote, Jim - and for deciding to do another group also, looking forward to hearing your thoughts on that group!

Does anyone else want to do another group? Would be nice to have as many votes as possible!

And also, just a reminder: the first voting deadline for this part is the 18th July. So, this Wednesday. If you think you will need extra time, please do let me know.

Happy Voting!

[mc ukrneal]

Group B: Also Sprach Zarathustra

Wow! The C group had a couple good alternatives, but this one is strong pretty much from top to bottom. I will be happy with almost any winners here as they all do a lot right. So I picked B5, B6, B2, B4, B3, and B1 in that order. I have to admit that B5 does not have the ideal sound, but the amount of detail here is so impressive. This version has a lot to say and is effective at saying it. So while others may play with more abandon at times or create moments of tremendous intensity, I felt it was B5 that really captured the whole. Having said that, they are all of high quality. B6 and B5 complement each other well though, and I surprise myself by not going with the more bombastic one.

My Rankings
B1: If you like the opening reaaallllyyy sssssssssssllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow, then this is for you (Sarge, you reading this?!). It has some beauty to it, and the control of the orchestra is actually pretty impressive. The rest is more or less ok (and at normal speed), though sound of this one is older.  Ranking: 6.

B2: Unison is the opening is not as together as it could be, but the impact is good anyway.They got the diminuendo toward the end of the opening spot on. The second clip was also good. It could have had that bit extra in terms of volatility and power, but hard to criticize. Ranking: 3.

B3: Opening trumpets too punchless/tentative (and legato effect not really called for I think), but orchestra entrances compensate. Decent impact, but too limited in phrasing (though they do the diminuendo at the end of the first section).  Second clip again has trumpets that come in too gently – impact is tentative rather than gentle/light/soft. Not my favorite. Ranking: 5.

B4: There's punch in the orchestra on this one! Nice start. This one is perhaps too heavy on the brass (impressive as they are). Diminuendo is not quite as good as B2, but it is clearly there. Second clip is exciting, yet I find I miss the strings from B3 here. Hmmm, wasn't expecting that. Something about the balance here I don't like.  Ranking: 4.

B5: Sound here is a bit subdued to my ear. If not for that, it would be a nearly perfect beginning. Not the most intense, but everything is meticulously done (with markings almost entirely observed). The second clip has tremendous impact (and so many details that none of the others have) and I am swept away (I am interestingly, and for the first time, reminded of the Alpine Symphony here). So the impact could be greater in terms of weight and intensity, but the balance and playing are gorgeous. Stylistically, this was my favorite.  Ranking: 1.
 
B6: Entrances are good, but then strangely softer on the whole note (where it should still be forte at the beginning of the bar, and the sixteenth note is held a bit on the long side), which means the diminuendo crescendo impact is weakened (though they get it right on the third repeat of the motif). Nice diminuendo at the end, but I wonder if they let it all out a bit too early (they have nowhere to go)?  Second clip is very good. It is powerful and intense. But I think it shows its hand too early and could control the climaxes better. Still - outstanding.  Ranking: 2.

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you for your vote and comments, Neal! Really glad that you enjoyed that group so much!

[Carnivorous Sheep]

Here are my votes, I'll add in additional comments later today:

A6, A5, A4, A2, A1, A3

[mc ukrneal]

Group A: Also Sprach Zarathustra

A mixed group. I liked A4 and A5, despite less than ideal sound, though I heard better in other groups. A6 and A2 were next and quite close. A3 and A1 were last. Perhaps these last two should be reversed in order, but I wasn't going to listen to them again to be sure!  Having now listened to all three groups, the B group was the strongest group. At least half of the next round should come from that group in my opinion (even if not the ones I picked).

My Rankings

A1: Sixteenth note held too long with a big gap between it and the whole note (and a bit mushy on some entrances). Has some out of tune brass (and organ too dominant and loud, as much as I like it). Balance is off. Second clip is better. Nice harp! Why do they seem to be speeding up more and more (and for so long)? It's not terrible, but the reason for it escapes me. Ranking: 6

A2: Good start, though again a pause between sixteenth note and whole note. Holds some notes a bit long, but decent diminuendo at the end. Second clip is nice, but would have liked a bit more phrasing and such. Balance seems to favor the highs a bit (which are sometimes a bit thin), which doesn't help. Ranking: 4

A3: Softer start, but sixteenth note held so long (again with a pause between it and the whole note)! Decent diminuendo at the end of the first section though. Second clip has a dull opening. I think the orchestra has been placed back a bit and thus it loses on intimacy and comes across a bit cold. Playing is ok though (so I blame the engineering on this one).  Ranking: 5

A4: Distorted sound, but quite thrilling (and generally played as marked). Imagine this in good sound!  And a sweet diminuendo at the end! The second clip has so many details. Every note and phrase seems to have purpose here.  Ranking: 2

A5: Whoa, now talk about an effective start! Really fine (though organ perhaps stands out too much and ends too early). Second clip has the spirit of the piece quite nicely. It has very precise playing. I would love to hear this in better sound. Ranking: 1

A6: Pause between the sixteenth note and whole note first time round. Strong reverb on the drums. Builds well though. Speed up in tempo is not to my taste (and diminuendo is weak). Second clip is quite good. I like the flow here and some good detail. Ranking: 3

[Florestan]

Group A: Also Sprach Zarathustra

A mixed group. I liked A4 and A5, despite less than ideal sound, though I heard better in other groups. A6 and A2 were next and quite close. A3 and A1 were last. Perhaps these last two should be reversed in order, but I wasn't going to listen to them again to be sure!  Having now listened to all three groups, the B group was the strongest group. At least half of the next round should come from that group in my opinion (even if not the ones I picked).

My Rankings

Wow! Your ranking is exactly like mine.   

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you for doing all 3 groups, Neal! Really enjoy reading your comments!

Ok - around one more day to vote! Agin, if you need more time, please let me know!

[TheGSMoeller]

Greg                Neal
1. B6               1. B5
2. B4               2. B6
3. B5               3. B2
4. B2               4. B4
5. B3               5. B3
6. B1               6. B1

Here's the only results from the B group, myself and Neal. Interesting contrast. Nice write-ups on all your comparisons, Neal.

[mc ukrneal]

Wow! Your ranking is exactly like mine.   

That is wow. I did not read your comments until later, and still did not realize that our order was the same. I had a tough time with group A though. I think C had 2-3 good  (but not great) ones with some really lousy ones. Group B was just strong across the board. Group A didn't really evoke quite as strong a reaction either way. But there is a lot more piece to listen to, so should be interesting in the next round.

[mc ukrneal]

Greg                Neal
1. B6               1. B5
2. B4               2. B6
3. B5               3. B2
4. B2               4. B4
5. B3               5. B3
6. B1               6. B1

Here's the only results from the B group, myself and Neal. Interesting contrast. Nice write-ups on all your comparisons, Neal.

Thanks. We were quite similar. That group had a number of strong candidates though. I would be happy with any of the top 4 getting through (even if not my order).

[TheGSMoeller]

Thanks. We were quite similar. That group had a number of strong candidates though. I would be happy with any of the top 4 getting through (even if not my order).

I feel the same way, with bottom 2 I'm fine not moving on. Interested to hear the rest of the excerpts. Unfortunately I know who B4 is, so I'm trying to be a little un-bias considering I really love that recording.

[madaboutmahler]

One more day to post your votes! If you do need extra time, please still feel free to let me know!