Blind Comparison: R.Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra

Started by madaboutmahler, June 24, 2012, 11:34:00 AM

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Carnivorous Sheep

I've always been a big Tennstedt fan, I think his reputation turns a lot of people off of him, but he truly does some marvelous work.
Baa?

mc ukrneal

Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 02, 2012, 07:00:44 AM
What do you think? :D

My top three choices are out from round 2! Which means my tastes differ significantly from most of the rest of you. I loved A4 in both rounds - as I wrote, every note seems to have purpose. I think ranking it lower on sound is a mistake in a comparison like this.

And knocking out B5 was disappointing. I liked it in both rounds. Interesting how I liked the Schumann 4 and now this. Tennstedt is a composer I don't usually pay much attention to, but I guess I should. I assume this is also the same version in the Tennstedt box on EMI (the one with 14 discs)?
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 02, 2012, 11:54:05 PM
I think ranking it lower on sound is a mistake in a comparison like this.

I don't agree. We're trying to find the best recording and that includes orchestral performance, interpretation and sound. In the comments many mention the sound of the recordings they're judging so I'm obviously not alone here. It's not only historical recordings that suffer. Modern recordings like Boulez's get knocked down too for faulty sonics. I think that's valid. Of course I wouldn't rate a great performance of a work with poor sound lower than a bad performance with great sound, but in the case of Mitropoulos, I really didn't like his interpretation and there were performance aspects about it that bothered me too. So it wasn't just the sound that turned me off.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

mc ukrneal

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 03, 2012, 03:14:17 AM
I don't agree. We're trying to find the best recording and that includes orchestral performance, interpretation and sound.
Sarge
Perhaps I'm quibbling, but I am looking for the best interpretation, not recording. If I were looking for the best recording, I would indeed knock down A4 to one of the last, because of sound alone (and the Boulez even more so). But I don't view that as the purpose of this exercise. On the other hand, I understand how difficult it can be to evaluate as poor sound makes it harder to appreciate the interpretation, a catch 22 of sorts.  Our different approach helps explain the difference in some results.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

J.Z. Herrenberg

My few cents - I listen out for the best interpretation, too, but in the best combination with the recorded sound. Why? I simply ask myself - if I could only have one recording-cum-performance, which one is so good that it will not start to irritate and disappoint me at some moment in the future?
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

madaboutmahler

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 02, 2012, 11:54:05 PM
My top three choices are out from round 2! Which means my tastes differ significantly from most of the rest of you. I loved A4 in both rounds - as I wrote, every note seems to have purpose. I think ranking it lower on sound is a mistake in a comparison like this.

And knocking out B5 was disappointing. I liked it in both rounds. Interesting how I liked the Schumann 4 and now this. Tennstedt is a conductor I don't usually pay much attention to, but I guess I should. I assume this is also the same version in the Tennstedt box on EMI (the one with 14 discs)?
Yes, I believe so. I think he only recorded it once....
I too have been impressed with Tennstedt in these comparisons. Makes me very excited to dive into the Tennstedt Mahler box I have awaiting me on my listening pile!

The importance of sound quality certainly is an interesting debate. Dated sound normally doesn't bother me too much at all, especially when I enjoy the interpretation as much as I did for Mitropoulos. And the old recordings are so fascinating to hear too!

Will be interested to read what you all think of C2 in the final, considering this debate! :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

trung224

Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 03, 2012, 10:08:22 AM
Yes, I believe so. I think he only recorded it once....
I too have been impressed with Tennstedt in these comparisons. Makes me very excited to dive into the Tennstedt Mahler box I have awaiting me on my listening pile!

The importance of sound quality certainly is an interesting debate. Dated sound normally doesn't bother me too much at all, especially when I enjoy the interpretation as much as I did for Mitropoulos. And the old recordings are so fascinating to hear too!

Will be interested to read what you all think of C2 in the final, considering this debate! :)

     Personally I found Tennstedt usually felt exhibited in studio, so I stay away from him for the long time. But  the magnificent Mahler 5 live on EMI and especially the spiritual , if not legendary performance Mahler 2 on LPO Live label changed my mind completed. If you want to know Tennstedt, stay away from the EMI set (except the live Mahler 5) and go to the live recording Dvorak 8,9 on Testament, Mahler 1,2,6, Bruckner 4,7,8 and Beethoven 9 from LPO live, Prokofiev 5,7 from Profil, many recordings from BBC legends. These CD is somewhat expansive but worth the price.
   I find nothing special about this Tennstedt' Also Sprach Zarathustra and Schumann 4 (many GMGerlike) on EMI, but I hope LPO live or Testament can release this live performance (which I think must be  great)
   The Mitropoulos performance is very intense and imaginative, but the best sound on Mediciarts label (who access the original tape on German Radio)

zauberflöte

#167
Well, I'm ready.
This was a great way to listen, spending time dissecting particular passages for the first two rounds and then feeling the entire sweep for the finals.
I doubt that will be possible or even desirable by the time we get to the Mahler Third, but it works nicely here in a piece that isn't overly long.

These were relatively quick decisions for me; all the performances were unique so my favorites revealed themselves pretty early.

A5 is nicely balanced throughout but here the sonics just aren't up to snuff. And while that doesn't matter in a case like the infectious but even worse-sounding C2, it matters here because the performance itself, though excellent, isn't as much fun. But it's still extremely persuasive and I suspect this is a classic recording, Reiner, perhaps, or the early Karajan. I'm happy to place it in my top five of all we've listened to.

Why didn't B4 work for me? It did in sections in the earlier listening but not as a whole and I was surprised a quality recording like this ended up dead last for me.  It was easily the most fascinating, an exciting, sonic spectacular. I couldn't really figure out why it wasn't moving me. Then it dawned on me. It's too brightly lit. While I normally love hearing individual voices, this time it sounded like individual egos shouting out to be heard and not a cohesive whole. Though in many ways it was wonderful I don't know if it was the conductor, the orchestra or the recording engineer performing the wonders. It almost sounded as if each individual instrument had been recorded solo in a sound room, then the engineer took all the single tapes, put them on 100 or so separate tracks and fashioned a single performance out of them.

C1 had already grown to become my favorite and nothing changed upon listening to the whole piece. A beautiful whole, a stunning orchestra. Sweeping. If this isn't considered a classic performance it should be. Extraordinary forward momentum with every shade of orchestral color and character one could hope for. None of the others really came close.
I didn't even listen to it much, once at the beginning and then once again at the end to be sure I had it right. Great performance.

C2, Still so much fun. It can't really displace the top two but it's such a happy performance, if not one storming the heights or pondering the depths.

C3 Lovely harp, loved the basses really digging in with the cellos in the Science and Learning section. Individual moments stunning, but the whole worked, too. I didn't realize this was turning into my second favorite but none of the others could top it.

Results:

1. C1
2. C3
3. C2
4. A5
5. B4

madaboutmahler

Thank you for your vote, Jim! Very interesting comments, I always enjoy reading them.
Quote from: zauberflöte on August 09, 2012, 06:12:50 PM
I doubt that will be possible or even desirable by the time we get to the Mahler Third, but it works nicely here in a piece that isn't overly long.

I'm leaving that one, along with no.9, to the very last  ;D Still thinking about how to do the comparisons for those gigantic works.... will take a lot of thought! At the moment, I am thinking of some more pieces to compare inbetween the Mahler symphonies and know which one I'll set up next (After M1). Very excited about that one already... :D

Think it's about a week left for everyone to vote, if you need more time, please let me know! :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

classicalgeek

My apologies, I've missed the first couple of rounds of listening and voting.  Two weeks of vacation in July and a busy work schedule will do that!  I will do my very best to listen to the finalists and vote on them, though.
So much great music, so little time...

Original compositions and orchestrations: https://www.youtube.com/@jmbrannigan

madaboutmahler

Quote from: classicalgeek on August 13, 2012, 05:02:15 PM
My apologies, I've missed the first couple of rounds of listening and voting.  Two weeks of vacation in July and a busy work schedule will do that!  I will do my very best to listen to the finalists and vote on them, though.

Don't worry :) The voting deadline for this final part is in 4 days (on the 18th at 10.00 pm) but if you, or anyone, needs extra time, just let me know! :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

mjwal

Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 14, 2012, 03:34:17 AM
Don't worry :) The voting deadline for this final part is in 4 days (on the 18th at 10.00 pm) but if you, or anyone, needs extra time, just let me know! :)
I'm afraid I shall not make this deadline - I have become listless and have not succeeded in listening to more than half of two of these recordings.
I might get back to it next week - this week we are preparing to move elsewhere for a couple of months - but don't count on me. Sorry about this, but at the moment the music bores me stiff.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

mc ukrneal

Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 14, 2012, 03:34:17 AM
Don't worry :) The voting deadline for this final part is in 4 days (on the 18th at 10.00 pm) but if you, or anyone, needs extra time, just let me know! :)
Unfortunately, I have not had a large enough block of time to myself to listen. I will try to make the deadline, but the extra day Sunday would help.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

madaboutmahler

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 16, 2012, 10:11:32 AM
Unfortunately, I have not had a large enough block of time to myself to listen. I will try to make the deadline, but the extra day Sunday would help.

No worries - if you need the extra Sunday, you can have it! :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

TheGSMoeller

When does the complete Ring Cycle blind comparison begin?

mc ukrneal

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2012, 11:35:59 AM
When does the complete Ring Cycle blind comparison begin?
The real question is:When does it end!?!? :)
Quote from: madaboutmahler on August 16, 2012, 11:05:03 AM
No worries - if you need the extra Sunday, you can have it! :)
THanks!
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2012, 11:35:59 AM
When does the complete Ring Cycle blind comparison begin?

:D

Haha, I would certainly take part in that comparison!
"Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." - Gustav Mahler

madaboutmahler

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2012, 11:35:59 AM
When does the complete Ring Cycle blind comparison begin?
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 16, 2012, 11:39:17 AM
The real question is:When does it end!?!? :) THanks!
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on August 16, 2012, 11:39:48 AM
:D

Haha, I would certainly take part in that comparison!

:o   ;D
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven

DavidRoss

So what remains? Previn? Reiner? Ormandy? One of Mehta's? Knowing Daniel, at least one Karajan!

Though I don't like the piece enough to hear so much of it, I do look forward to seeing what y'all end up with (not Sinopoli, apparently!).
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

madaboutmahler

Quote from: DavidRoss on August 16, 2012, 12:29:42 PM
So what remains? Previn? Reiner? Ormandy? One of Mehta's? Knowing Daniel, at least one Karajan!

Though I don't like the piece enough to hear so much of it, I do look forward to seeing what y'all end up with (not Sinopoli, apparently!).

All will be revealed in a few days! ;) I'll be setting up the Mahler 1 comparison in around a week, by the way, David. :)
"Music is ... A higher revelation than all Wisdom & Philosophy"
— Ludwig van Beethoven