Blind Comparison: R.Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra

[Sergeant Rock]

C3 The Sunrise is unimpressive, almost lame: weak drums and the organ sounds strange when the orchestra cuts out at the end leaving it exposed. As though embarrassed to find itself suddenly alone, it abruptly stops playing after less than two seconds and runs away. Pitiful  But things improve after that. There's a nice sense of mystery and danger in Hinterweltlern. Great horns and trombones in Joys and Passions; quite thrilling (I'm tempted to give it first place just for this detail alone). Tanzlied was remarkably gentle and delicate. Nice. I prefer a slower start to the Convalescent section, though (at this speed some detail gets lost, like a few muted trumpet interjections that can be heard vividly in the Sinopoli recording). But overall I love the detail in this recording. Most everything can heard without sounding spotlit. With that poor Introduction, I really hate to give this the Gold Medal but the rest of the performance makes up for it.

B4 Convalescent too fast, even hectic. In fact, other than the Sunrise, which I liked here, the entire piece felt rushed. Undoubtedly exciting but rather exhausting. It seems like a Solti kind of performance. (Not a guess, just a description.) But overall, this had fewer negatives than C1 and I prefer, slightly, the sonics.

C1 Sonically, and interpretively for my taste, this has the most impressive sunrise. But, compared to C3, I thought Hinterweltlern was on the dull side with little sense of mystery and the horns go completely missing in Joys and Passions. A fatal flaw. But the convalescent section rocked! And I still love the Tanzlied here.

C2 This is a weird recording. It's very poor sonically until after the climax in Convalescent, Until then it's murky with unappealing, whiny string sound; brass is buried in Joys and Passions (and there is nothing joyful sounding here). Science and Learning plods.The contrapuntal strands in Convalescent can't be heard clearly, and the climax, with the reprise of the Sunrise motif, lacks excitement and power. The sound suddenly seems to improve after that though, as did the interpretation. The second half of Convalescent is fun and actually sounds pretty good. The Tanzlied goes the way I like to hear it: schmaltzy. Based on the first half of the piece, I don't know how this made it beyond the first round but the second half I enjoy very much.

A5 Loved this performance (other than the too short organ chord) but not enough to overcome the vintage sound and sonic deficiencies (this must be an LP transfer, including clicks and pops). The dance is interesting; not the way I like to hear it but a fascinating alternative: light and fast...not a dance for humans but a fairy dance? I'd consider buying this if it's available on CD (with improved sound).

1 - C3
2 - B4
3 - C1
4 - C2
5 - A5


Sarge

[mahler10th]

C3 The Sunrise is unimpressive, almost lame: weak drums and the organ sounds strange when the orchestra cuts out at the end leaving it exposed. As though embarrassed to find itself suddenly alone, it abruptly stops playing after less than two seconds and runs away. Pitiful  But things improve after that. There's a nice sense of mystery and danger in Hinterweltlern. Great horns and trombones in Joys and Passions; quite thrilling (I'm tempted to give it first place just for this detail alone). Tanzlied was remarkably gentle and delicate. Nice. I prefer a slower start to the Convalescent section, though (at this speed some detail gets lost, like a few muted trumpet interjections that can be heard vividly in the Sinopoli recording). But overall I love the detail in this recording. Most everything can heard without sounding spotlit. With that poor Introduction, I really hate to give this the Gold Medal but the rest of the performance makes up for it.

B4 Convalescent too fast, even hectic. In fact, other than the Sunrise, which I liked here, the the entire piece felt rushed. Undoubtedly exciting but rather exhausting. It seems like a Solti kind of performance. (Not a guess, just a description.) But overall, this had fewer negatives than C1 and I prefer, slightly, the sonics.

C1 Sonically, and interpretively for my taste, this has the most impressive sunrise. But, compared to C3, I thought Hinterweltlern was on the dull side with little sense of mystery and the horns go completely missing in Joys and Passions. A fatal flaw. But the convalescent section rocked! And I still love the Tanzlied here.

C2 This is a weird recording. It's very poor sonically until after the climax in Convascent, Until then it's murky with unappealing, whiny string sound; brass is buried in Joys and Passions (and there is nothing joyful sounding here). Science and Learning plods.The contrapuntal strands in Convalescent can't be heard clearly, and the climax, with the reprise of the Sunrise motif, lacks excitement and power. The sound suddenly seems to improve after that though, as did the interpretation. The second half of Convalescent is fun and actually sounds pretty good. The Tanzlied goes the way I like to hear it. Based on the first half of the piece, I don't know how this made it beyond the first round but the second half I enjoy very much.

A5 Loved this performance (other than the too short organ chord) but not enough to overcome the vintage sound and sonic deficiencies (this must be an LP transfer, including clicks and pops). The dance is interesting; not the way I like to hear it but a fascinating alternative: light and fast...not a dance for humans but a fairy dance? I'd consider buying this if it's available on CD (with improved sound).
1 - C3
2 - B4
3 - C1
4 - C2
5 - A5
Sarge

Sarge is quoted because his post is active on the subject, unlike the following, which is lame....
How have I missed this?  It is intolerable!  Where are the files?

[TheGSMoeller]

For me, I think part of it has to do with the weighting. I like the dance section, but that will never be a make or break part of my choice. Rather, the opening theme and its repeat later and some other bits are more important to my decision making. Thus, the second round excerpts played a relatively small role in deciding my ranking. Others, however, may have made other weightings and placed importance on other things. In this grouping, there was no one version that played all the bits just right, which is part of what made it hard. If a fierce opening was preferred, for example, well C3 was not the best choice. The drums, as we both noted, are quite tame. But I felt that none of the openings was exactly what I liked (though some of those earlier eliminated were better). So for me, I would go through all the best openings (along with a few other select moments, one of which was the clip picked in the first round) and put those in the final. C3 was still tops in other areas, so it would have made it through despite a less than perfect opening, but I don't know that the ultimate choice for me would have changed.

What we did was no less valid, and it was only by going through it that I realized I was weighting one part less. You/others may have a different approach, one that is not less valid (and I am not complaining - the process is helpful for understanding). But the same thing happened in Mahler if you remember - because of the excerpt selected at the start, some famous (and excellent) versions were dropped. Change the order of the excerpts and the final results might be different, but then again, maybe not. In any case, I still found the whole process enjoyable.

Yes, sir. Highly enjoyable. 
A good example is Zinman's recording, I think Sarge and I were close on this also, but Zinman got low marks for the opening but then high marks for the "Dance" section.

As much as I praise Sinopoli, and it came in last, another one I praise, and I even loaned the piece to Daniel so it could be added to the lineup, was Blomstedt/SFO...and it came in next to last! 
I guess I need to hone up on my Zarathustra skills.

Sarge is quoted because his post is active on the subject, unlike the following, which is lame....
How have I missed this?  It is intolerable!  Where are the files?

PM from Daniel.

[TheGSMoeller]

I think we have a clear cut winner.

[Sergeant Rock]

Sarge is quoted because his post is active on the subject, unlike the following, which is lame....
How have I missed this?  It is intolerable!  Where are the files?

I'll PM you the links, John.

Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

Sarge and I have the same order  .  and as I said before, I know who B4 is   

[Sergeant Rock]

Sarge and I have the same order  .  and as I said before, I know who B4 is   

Yeah, we're usually close in our likes and dislikes. I originally had C1 second, but I did a quick re-listen and discovered B4 had grown on me. I'll visit my doctor tomorrow to see if it poses any danger 

Sarge

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you Greg and Sarge for your votes, very interesting comments! And, my pleasure, really a joy to organize!

And thanks, Sarge, for sending John the links. I'll send you a PM now, John.

[Lisztianwagner]

I'm deeply sorry I couldn't write my thoughts this morning, I'll post them now!

[Lisztianwagner]

I enjoyed this comparison very much, I'm looking forward to knowing the results!

A5: Absolutely thrilling, hauntingly beautiful interpretation. The conductor perfectly keeps the control of the orchestra, whose playing is incredibly passionate, powerful and expressive, and even makes up for the rather poor sound quality. Impressive, involving climaxes overall, especially at the end of "Von den grossen Sehnsucht"; the strings, at the peak of tension, are splendid in "Von den Freuden und Leidenschaften"; tense, mysterious atmosphere also wonderfully expressed in the first part of "Der Genesende"; absolutely outstanding second part, very vibrant, energetic and thrilling. Elegant, harmonic introduction of woodwinds and strings in "Das Tanzlied"; excellent solo of violin. I also loved the intensity and the explosive force of the final part.
B4: Well, remarkable recording. The piece is performed with the right passion and expressive strenght, while the orchestral playing is brilliant and powerful, with a good, clear sound and moving, strong climaxes. I didn't like the timpani in the introduction, too dull. The choice of tempo is maybe the weakest point, there are sometimes little variations of rythm which becomes slightly too fast, and with too hasty entrances. Nice waltz in "Das Tanzlied".
C1: Same speech of A5, absolutely stunning, impressive performance, which, unlike the other one, showed a much better sound quality. Instead the sound of the tubular bells was a bit too clang.
C2: A bit too weak blows of timpani in the introduction; neither the orchestra nor dynamics  sometimes sounded very well-balanced, although the orchestral playing was rather brilliant, passionate and intense. The beginning of the waltz was slightly too slow and lacked some vitality.
C3: Brilliant, enjoyable perfomance. Very good choice of tempo and phrasing; excellent dynamics as well. The orchestral playing is very intense, expressive and well-handled, I particularly appreciated the atmosphere created in "Von der Wissenschaft" and "Der Genesende", very involving powerfully emotional. Gorgeous, moving climaxes.

In order:
A5
C1
C3
B4
C2

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you very much for your vote, Ilaria! Enjoyed reading your comments very much, very interesting!

[mahler10th]

I enjoyed this comparison very much, I'm looking forward to knowing the results!
A5: Absolutely thrilling, hauntingly beautiful interpretation. The conductor perfectly keeps the control of the orchestra, whose playing is incredibly passionate, powerful and expressive, and even makes up for the rather poor sound quality. Impressive, involving climaxes overall, especially at the end of "Von den grossen Sehnsucht"; the strings, at the peak of tension, are splendid in "Von den Freuden und Leidenschaften"; tense, mysterious atmosphere also wonderfully expressed in the first part of "Der Genesende"; absolutely outstanding second part, very vibrant, energetic and thrilling. Elegant, harmonic introduction of woodwinds and strings in "Das Tanzlied"; excellent solo of violin. I also loved the intensity and the explosive force of the final part.
B4: Well, remarkable recording. The piece is performed with the right passion and expressive strenght, while the orchestral playing is brilliant and powerful, with a good, clear sound and moving, strong climaxes. I didn't like the timpani in the introduction, too dull. The choice of tempo is maybe the weakest point, there are sometimes little variations of rythm which becomes slightly too fast, and with too hasty entrances. Nice waltz in "Das Tanzlied".
C1: Same speech of A5, absolutely stunning, impressive performance, which, unlike the other one, showed a much better sound quality. Instead the sound of the tubular bells was a bit too clang.
C2: A bit too weak blows of timpani in the introduction; neither the orchestra nor dynamics  sometimes sounded very well-balanced, although the orchestral playing was rather brilliant, passionate and intense. The beginning of the waltz was slightly too slow and lacked some vitality.
C3: Brilliant, enjoyable perfomance. Very good choice of tempo and phrasing; excellent dynamics as well. The orchestral playing is very intense, expressive and well-handled, I particularly appreciated the atmosphere created in "Von der Wissenschaft" and "Der Genesende", very involving powerfully emotional. Gorgeous, moving climaxes.
In order:
A5
C1
C3
B4
C2

We are on the same wavelegnth.  Here are my somewhat shoreted conclusions...
A5  I have a feeling that this one would be knockout if the sound was not so old.  If this could be played as it is NOW, it would beat everything.  Unfortunately though, in its current state, I cannot come to terms with it.  But the playing is lyrical and complete.  This is a BRILLIANT take, hard to gauge with sound quality.

B4  The opening is big and bold.  Lots of contrasts between intruments playing the lower end of the scale.  It is as grand as can be, very nice interplays going on with woodwind and strings...everything is played beautifully, with depth, but it lacks the PROFUNDITY of the musical poems subject.

C1  Yeah baby!  Now we're talkin'!  Poetic and beuatiful portrayed in all the right places.  I love the violins and their combinations.  I am on a superman journey.  This is a tone poem...tone is everything in this.  Deep and beautiful.

C2  No baby!  This is not my kind of thing.  Again, perhaps an old recording, which may interfere with my four sentence review here.  The playing is fine, some nice touches.  I wonder how many rehearsals were done...it lacks gravitas in build-ups and for whatever reason does not excite me. 

C3  This is the 'darkest' one.  Nice emphasis on some of the downbeats.  Out of it comes the light.

Of them all, A5 and C1 get my provisional vote...I will go with C1.  A5 despite its acoustic shortcomings, has everything I like in the piece, and then some.  But C1 has an audible MYSTERY in it, uncertainty, light and life.  It is not a hands down win - I wish A5 was better remastered, we would hear its magic better and it would win hands down.

For the record, my favourite Strauss Zarathustra is Ferdinand Lietner with the SWR Symphony Orchestra (recorded 1976 I think.)  If that is one of the 5 I have listened to, I'm in trouble...

C1, A5 (so close), B4, C3, C2.

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you very much for your vote, John. Very impressed you got your vote in after only one day of having the files!

[Lisztianwagner]

We are on the same wavelegnth.

[TheGSMoeller]

Someone is getting a little anxious for the results.

[madaboutmahler]

Someone is getting a little anxious for the results.

Just waiting for one more vote, and then the results will be posted this evening.
Thank you for your patience

[TimH]

Really enjoyed this blind comparison, and getting to know and appreciate this marvellous piece of music much better.

1st = C1: Blistering opening with thumping timpani and resplendent organ; followed by restrained string section, patient build-up, glorious multilayers; richness and complexity of score shines through, subtle detailed colouring throughout, very dramatic and committed reading; natural vivid recording - is it live?.... just the occasional quiet background noise; gripping fugal section; dance section - virtuoso playing with a lack of glitz and kitsch found elsewhere, skips along lightly; serene enchanting ending; all in all a hugely satisfying performance in every way.

2nd = C3: competes strongly with C1 - poised, nuanced, superb orchestral colours captured by recording, highly detailed, impassioned, emotional and thrilling; virtuoso orchestra; weaker than C1 in two key areas - (i) opening does not have the same impact, the timpani sounding rather woolly, and (ii) dance section gets off to a very slow start and solo violin lacks character and rather merges with background....... therefore overall just behind C1.

3rd = A5: Distant, crackly recording - some orchestral colour remains damped or hidden, but nevertheless still possesses sparkle, presence and depth; perfectly paced, well integrated, excellent balance between different parts of orchestra, secure, smooth, self-contained, robust; great orchestra, all solos expertly delivered; dance section violin solo - light, bouncy, accurate, forward moving, delicate, not cheesy; haunting ending; overall would have competed with C1 and C3 ...if only the recording were better!

4th = B4: Huge start! Huge timpani! Thrilling - vivid recording - shows how much was missing in A5 - but a little congested sometimes; orchestra lacking finesse of A5? Passionate and energetic with great clout but slightly rough and harsh occasionally - not as much light and shade as others; occasional conductor sounds, but not obtrusive; dance section violin solo - too stuttering at start.

5th = C2: Very thin congested sound with background noise/hiss; woolly timpani and solo instruments sound terrible - violin, oboe;
sound distortion makes it difficult to ascertain merits of performance - sounds like ragged string ensemble at times, sliding and swooping all over the place; creates more frustration than enjoyment! For me does not compete with the others.

Looking forward to the results.

Well done madaboutmahler for another fascinating blind comparison.

TimH

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you for your vote, very interesting comments!

[madaboutmahler]

Ok, I think that's all the votes collected, thank you again everyone! I hope you have enjoyed this comparison, and the results will be posted later this evening, probably at around 10.00 pm England time.

[TheGSMoeller]

Ok, I think that's all the votes collected, thank you again everyone! I hope you have enjoyed this comparison, and the results will be posted later this evening, probably at around 10.00 pm England time.

Great job again, Daniel.