Blind Comparison: R.Strauss - Also sprach Zarathustra

[madaboutmahler]

Great job again, Daniel. 

Thank you very much, Greg - right, just about to start typing up the results now!

[madaboutmahler]

And here they are, the final results:

05. C2 Vienna Philharmonic/Clemens Krauss (Testament/1950)
In this recording made just a year after Strauss' death, by a close friend, voters admired the passion and enthusiasm the music was played with mostly, and the level of transparency and richness. However, most of the voters felt that because of the dated sound, it could not content against the other recordings in the top 5.
[asin]B00004THEF[/asin]
(This recording recieved 13 out of a possible 35 points)

04. B4 Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Sir Georg Solti (Decca/1975)
'On the edge' playing, with a kinetic, almost vicious feel attracted some, but others longed for some subtlety, and also a better balance. Certainly a thrilling account though!
[asin]B00000422Q[/asin]
(This recording recieved 16 out of a possible 35 points)

03. A5 Vienna Philharmonic/Herbert von Karajan (Decca/1959)
Many were impressed by this performance, praising it for being beautifully detailed, lyrical and involving. Voters did wish it could be heard in better sound, it is possible this cd has a better remaster.
[asin]B00004C8TF[/asin]
(This recording recieved 20 out of a possible 35 points)

02. C1 Berlin Philharmonic/Herbert von Karajan (DG/1974)
It was very close between Karajan's classic second recording and the winning recording, with only two points between them! Most listeners adored this recording from the very start, calling it beautifully portrayed and poetic. Most found this an incredibly satisfying performance in every single way.
[asin]B000001GQT[/asin]
(This recording recieved 27 out of a possible 35 points)

01. C3 Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Fritz Reiner (RCA/1954)
And this classic performance comes first, and deservedly too. It has been a favourite to pretty much everyone throughout the whole comparison, tending to take the top number of points from every vote, and if not, only because Karajan on C1 had instead... Listeners were incredibly impressed by the virtosity and brilliance of the orchestra, and amazed at how detailed, emotional and gorgeous the playing was.

(This recording recieved 29 out of a possible 35 points)

Remarkable also how well remastered this has been...  A well deserved Strauss ASZ champion!  0:)
[asin]B0002TKFQI[/asin]

So that's it! Thank you very much for all of your contribution, I hope you have enjoyed it all, and will continue to enjoy the comparisons!

[mahler10th]

Thank you very much for that.  Now I know where I stand, lol!   What is ASZ?

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you very much for that.  Now I know where I stand, lol!   What is ASZ?

My pleasure! ASZ = Also Sprach Zarathustra

[mahler10th]

My pleasure! ASZ = Also Sprach Zarathustra

Ach!  I feel like a fool.  Of course!  Thank you for theis and all the other tests, these really do 'test our mettle' and we get to know what we like just that wee bit better.  Good man, Daniel, hats off to you.

[madaboutmahler]

Ach!  I feel like a fool.  Of course!  Thank you for theis and all the other tests, these really do 'test our mettle' and we get to know what we like just that wee bit better.  Good man, Daniel, hats off to you.

Not at all!

And it's my pleasure, thank you for your kind words. I really enjoy sorting out the comparisons!

[Lisztianwagner]

What interesting results! So Reiner's recording has won; I had never listened to it before, but it rather impressed me in this comparison, such an excellent version! I'm deeply sorry Karajan's performances didn't win, they are the best ever recorded in my opinion, especially the VPO version; anyway glad it came to so high positions!

Thank you so much for this blind comparison, Daniel, it was absolutely a great fun!

[TheGSMoeller]

That's a good top 5 list for sure. Great results.

[Sergeant Rock]

Can someone explain this. I have the Reiner recording. Total time is 31:48 according to the booklet, and I confirmed that time on my computer by checking each track. I checked Amazon. Same timings.

But the performance we heard as C3 is 34:04, more than two minutes slower. The Sunrise on the Reiner recording is 1:31. The Sunrise on C3 is 1:44. WTF, over.

Sarge

[madaboutmahler]

Can someone explain this. I have the Reiner recording. Total time is 31:48 according to the booklet, and I confirmed that time on my computer by checking each track. I checked Amazon. Same timings.

But the performance we heard as C3 is 34:04, more than two minutes slower. The Sunrise on the Reiner recording is 1:31. The Sunrise on C3 is 1:44. WTF, over.

Sarge

That is very strange, Sarge.... I'll look into this. I think he only recorded it once....

[Sergeant Rock]

Continuing the C3 controversy: I just listened to the Reiner CD and compared it to C3. They are different. I initially thought maybe the rip had somehow made C3 slower. But that would change the pitch, wouldn't it? The trumpet notes in Sunrise seem to be at the same pitch in both recordings though. But not only timings are different; the instrumental balance is different too. For example, the triangle is very prominent at the climax to Sunrise in C3 but can't be heard on the Reiner CD (maybe one faint ping). The horns in Joys and Passions really leap out in C3--a detail I loved so much when comparing versions. On the Reiner CD they are can barely be discerned throughout much of this section, so well blended are they with the strings. Here's a rip of Reiner's Joys and Passions. Compare it with C3 (starting at 7:40). The difference is startling, and can be heard immediately:

http://www.4shared.com/mp3/I6AaeFyx/Joys_and_Passions.html?

Daniel, where did you get C3? Is it your own rip from a CD you own, did someone give it to you, or did you find it somewhere? I'm wondering if we have an actual blind listening experience here. Double blind! with the moderator being in the dark too


Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

We may never know who won. 

[zauberflöte]

Interesting. Sarge's Reiner is different, a little speedier, upon cursory listening.
I had wondered where the Reiner was because Daniel had told me it was in the mix somewhere. But I had guessed A5, even though the opening of A5 sounds exactly like the the opening for the film "2001," which had used the older Karajan recording.
I didn't know what C3 was, (and perhaps I still don't) but I like Daniel's Reiner a little better than Sarge's, what I heard of Sarge's anyway.

I had guessed C3 might have been Zubin Mehta. I'm not a fan of his but I've read his recording of the piece is exceptional. Mehta was nowhere to be found. I thought the sound too good to be from 1954. (The Reiner recording date.)

I was pretty sure C1 was Karajan. I have that recording but haven't listened to it in years. I was determined not to for this judging either. I had done that with the Bernstein recording of the Mahler 6th and that recording had so topped all the others in my mind it detracted from my ability to judge the others impartially.

Because I thought there was a chance Daniel might have included two Karajans I had wondered if he might also have included Karajan's third, digital, performance. I've never heard that one. For a while I wondered if B4 might have been the digital Karajan but gave up on that thought because the sensibility of B4 is so different from what I associate with Karajan. But I never thought it could be Solti, though in hindsight I should have. But the sound of B4 is so good I thought it had to be later than 1975, when Solti recorded his performance.

Lesson learned? STOP GUESSING. Will I follow my own advice? Nah.

[Sergeant Rock]

I've owned Reiner for many years. I was shocked to see C3 revealed as Reiner because that's not the performance I know.

Here's my Reiner CD. As I said, I checked the booklet's timings with the CD on my computer and they match. They also match the timings (within a second or two anyway) of a different incarnation listed at Amazon so I'm sure I actually have Reiner and not some production mistake.

[mc ukrneal]

I've owned Reiner for many years. I was shocked to see C3 revealed as Reiner because that's not the performance I know.

Here's my Reiner CD. As I said, I checked the booklet's timings with the CD on my computer and they match. They also match the timings (within a second or two anyway) of a different incarnation listed at Amazon so I'm sure I actually have Reiner and not some production mistake.

I love a mystery! Accidental or not, this is great! I hope he knows which it is though. I did a qucik timing comparison of C3 in round 1 with round 3, and they are identical timings, so it does appear that they are at least the same versions (that is, not mixed up in just the last round).

[Sergeant Rock]

For a while I wondered if B4 might have been the digital Karajan but gave up on that thought because the sensibility of B4 is so different from what I associate with Karajan. But I never thought it could be Solti, though in hindsight I should have.

I suspected B4 was Solti but hedged my bet by claiming I wasn't really guessing    I can't explain why, but this performance reminded me of the sound of Solti's Ring. That coupled with an intense reading that refused to relax convinced me it was him.

I had guessed C3 might have been Zubin Mehta. I'm not a fan of his but I've read his recording of the piece is exceptional

Which recording? New York or LA? I listened to a couple of clips of the New York performance and they don't seem to match C3. Can't find any clips of the LA performance though.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I love a mystery! Accidental or not, this is great! I hope he knows which it is though. I did a qucik timing comparison of C3 in round 1 with round 3, and they are identical timings, so it does appear that they are at least the same versions (that is, not mixed up in just the last round).

Good to know. I wondered if there maybe had been a mix up at the end but couldn't check because the last round was the first I heard C3 and I  didn't have access to the first round clips.

Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

Good to know. I wondered if there maybe had been a mix up at the end but couldn't check because the last round was the first I heard C3 and I  didn't have access to the first round clips.

Sarge

Perhaps the way to go about it is for everyone to see if they have a version that lasts 34.04 (or close to it). I only have one version, so I won't be any help whatsoever on that one.

[TheGSMoeller]

Perhaps the answer can be found within ourselves, we the individuals, hold the key to all of life's questions, we are, the Supermen.

[Sergeant Rock]

Perhaps the way to go about it is for everyone to see if they have a version that lasts 34.04 (or close to it). I only have one version, so I won't be any help whatsoever on that one.

I've got 9 Zarathustras with Karajan '59 (A5) just ordered. I'll check them.


KEMPE  STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
SINOPOLI    NEW YORK
KARAJAN   BERLIN PHIL (DG 74 1984)
REINER  CHICAGO
TENNSTEDT LPO
BYCHKOV   PHILHARMONIA
JÄRVI  SCOTTISH NATIONAL O
ZINMAN  TONHALLE ZURICH
LEWIS  RPO


Edit: I have the digital Karajan, not the 74,

Sarge