Mystery Orchestra 18 - Schumann Symphony No.4 - one more

[M forever]

Unless you are gay anyway, then I guess it would make sense.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Back to Schumann for a minute, is this actually out of print in the US?


How did DG let a Karajan cycle go out of print? They kept pretty much everything he did.

[M forever]

Not necessarily. If it doesn't sell, it goes. Maybe to reappear repackaged later. Or maybe not. It is still in print in Europe. DG is a business, too, not a public service.

I actually never heard any of those. Would be interesting though. But I would be very interested in finally hearing the late 4th he recorded in Vienna. I think that's actually a live recording. DG annoyingly packaged it with the already relased Dvorak 8 with the WP. Or I think the Dvorak 8 was out on LP but not CD, that's why they threw the two recordings together. In any case, I never heard it, and copies are very hard to find. You don't happen to have that?

[PerfectWagnerite]

I don't have that one, the HVK Schumann 4th and Dvorak 8th that is.

I have another HVK Dvorak 8th coupled with a Brahms 3rd(?) that is on the DECCA label also featuring the Vienna Philharmonic. That was recorded in the '70s I think. For some reason HVK has a few Dvorak 8ths floating around and I am never sure whether I am buying the same performance or not.

[M forever]

The reason is that it is a very "popular" piece. So it gets recorded more often. I think the Decca recording is from the early 60s. There is one on EMI, one with the WP on DG which was also released on video by Sony. And I think that's about it. There may be some live recordings floating around, of course.

[PerfectWagnerite]

The reason is that it is a very "popular" piece. So it gets recorded more often. I think the Decca recording is from the early 60s. There is one on EMI, one with the WP on DG which was also released on video by Sony. And I think that's about it. There may be some live recordings floating around, of course.

Yeah, you are absolutely correct. The Dvorak 8th and Brahms 3rd were recorded in 1960 and '61 in the Sofiensaal in Vienna.

Did HVK conduct much Schumann in Berlin ?

[Drasko]

This concert in Salzburg was one of the (unfortunately) only 3 times Karajan conducted the SD in concert.

What was program for the other two and were they recorded?

[M forever]

Peter Iljitsch Tschaikowsky Klavierkonzert Nr. 1 b-Moll op. 23

Antonin Dvorák Symphonie Nr. 8 G-Dur op. 88
   
Staatskapelle Dresden   
Sviatoslav Richter, Klavier   
Herbert von Karajan

Salzburg Großes Festspielhaus
Datum: 15.Aug.1965



Béla  Bartók Konzert für Klavier und Orchester Nr. 3

Robert Schumann Symphonie Nr. 4 d-Moll op. 120 
   
Staatskapelle Dresden
Géza Anda, Klavier   
Herbert von Karajan   

Salzburg Großes Festspielhaus
Datum: 13.Aug.1972



Ludwig van Beethoven Konzert für Klavier und Orchester Nr. 3 c-Moll op. 37

Dmitri Dmitriewitsch Schostakowitsch Symphonie Nr. 10 e-Moll op. 93

Staatskapelle Dresden
Emil Gilels, Klavier   
Herbert von Karajan   

Salzburg Großes Festspielhaus
Datum: 15.Aug.1976



The second one you already know, the last one was recorded and recordings were available on a (probably pirate) label called Sardana, but I haven't been able to find a copy.
I don't know if the first one was recorded, but wouldn't be too surprised at all if it was. But I have never heard of or seen recordings.

[Drasko]

Both look very interesting, for the chance to hear Karajan live but even more to hear Staatskapelle Dresden in non German standards repertoire (I think there already was a mention somewhere how their discography is scarce beyond that), Dresden horns in the finale of Dvorak 8th ought to be nice.

That Sardana label seems to consist mostly of live, probably radio sourced material, never seen them in stores or online though
http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~hippo/musik/label/sardana.html

They do show up occasionally at Berky's Bruckner discography, maybe he'd have an idea of their availability?

[M forever]

I already asked him, but he doesn't have it. I will email that hippo guy later tonight.

[Drasko]

Staatskapelle Dresden in non German standards repertoire (I think there already was a mention somewhere how their discography is scarce beyond that), Dresden horns in the finale of Dvorak 8th ought to be nice.

The scarcity of Staatskapelle Dresden discography in non Austro-German repertoire, is well known fact but I never actually checked what is around. Did some cross checking and this is what I came up with. Haven't counted some concerto accompaniments, some operas (mostly in German) and those recent live series on Profil.

Czech:
Smetana - Ma Vlast / Berglund (EMI)
Dvorak - Stabat Mater / Sinopoli (DG)
Dvorak - Sym. No. 8 / Blomstedt
Dvorak - Syms. Nos. 8 & 9 / Levine (DG)

Russian:
Tchaikovsky - Serenade for Strings / Suitner
Tchaikovsky - Nutcracker Complete / Vonk (Laserlight)
Borodin - Sym No.2, Steppes / Sanderling
Stravinsky - Rite of Spring / Suitner
Stravinsky - Firebird / Kempe
Shostakovich - Sym No. 11 / Konwitschny

French:
Berlioz - Overtures / Davis (RCA)
Debussy - Prelude / Suitner
Bizet - Sym. in C / Suitner
Franck - Sym. in D minor / Sanderling

Other:
Liszt - Faust Sym. / Sinopoli (DG)
Liszt - Dante Sym. / Sinopoli (DG)
Busoni - Sarabande & Cortege / Sinopoli (DG)
Britten - Sinfonia da Requiem / Kempe
Grieg - Peer Gynt  / Blomstedt (EMI)

That is really not much for orchestra of that quality and reputation.
All recordings are on Berlin Classics unless stated otherwise.

[M forever]

Just as an afterthought to this thread which attracted a lot of interest, here is another Schumann 4 (the clip again contains the complete first movement) which I just got and which you may find interesting.
Or maybe not.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2yad3p

[Sean]

It's good to return to this great music- Schumann's last two symphonies, with the Piano concerto, are his greatest achievement in sheer unusualness, murkiness and depth of invention, and the unique and inwardly powerful scoring he perfected over a long period: it's hard to avoid the adjectival ketchup here- there aren't words enough for these profound works.

The present clip opens slightly faster than the Solti/VPO/Decca I first knew but still in the idiom, getting into the theme's strange brooding world; rich and spaceous strings, urgent and striving with timpani a touch too percussive.

It tries to find just a little too much at around 1'30'' instead of letting things speak for themselves- Solti prepares the new entry at 1'50 with more natural lyricism whereas here the slowdown seems slighly forced. However the passion in the strings over the next few minutes is superb and the control of dynamics issues from a sophisticated musical mind at the helm, very confident and extremely well prepared.

At this point I'm thinking this is the Karajan/BPO, especially as it feels to have exactly those fractionally faster tempos and onward drive he brought to early romantic music in the '70s: it's an extremely accomplished combination of poetic intensity and intellectual assurance yet lacks the last degree of mellow refinement of his work from his last years- in some ways it still sounds like thought of a young man.

It's a real pleasure to listen to, someone who understands what the music means and how to coax it from an orchestra. The ravishing ensemble in faster moments between strings and winds almost has to be the BPO; each of the orchestra's departments is exceptionally well oiled and beauty and articulation never conflict with power and strength. Patrician refinement in touching in high notes and ornaments in subtle turns of phrase combines with a fine sense of dark Goethean drama.

Around 4'50'' the music moves into new territory yet the grip on the canvas and overall conception is retained; Solti found a touch more fullness in the tuttis around 5'55'' and around 7'00'' I'd have welcomed a more natural softening of the tempo for a few moments.

But the heroic element is splendidly done, with fabulous balance of forces no matter how rapid the flux, reminiscent of a great performance of the opening movement of the Eroica: the movement proceeds with an incisiveness and depth-understanding that defies analysis, the peroration having the appropriate inevitability and Beethovenian resolution. There's a mind here whose sense of stillness encompasses the height of passion.

As I said before, I find the last chord's suggestion of an imperfect cadence is full of interest: Solti separates it a little more, and it's as though it can't be said quite what to do with it.

Karajan/BPO.

[M forever]

A very definitive guess here from Sean. Is he right? Or just close? Or is he wrong? Maybe. Or maybe not.

[Sean]

Let's hope so!

[Sean]

M, didn't you mention a forthcoming Mystery orchestra with Sibelius? Can we please have the Fourth symphony if you have the recordings, or 6th, or 7th, or 3rd or 2nd. But I'm not wading through any 5ths, or 1sts for that matter.

[M forever]

Maybe. Or maybe not. We will see.

[M forever]

Anyway, the "afterthought" bonus clip which Sean reviewed was, once again, the NDR Sinfonieorchester conducted by Günter Wand: