Tippett's Tearoom

[ggluek]

My favorites include most of those listed above (Corelli Fantasia, Piano Concerto, Triple Concerto, Second Symphony).  I think The Midsummer Marriage contains the most beautiful music written in the 1950s, and is on my desert island list.  You can either get past the libretto's idiomatic 1950s British English, or you can't.  But if you can't you're missing something wonderful.

A personal anecdote:  I went to the second of the US premiere performances of the Third Symphony by Colin Davis and the BSO, and wound up quite by accident sitting next to Michael Steinberg, who was then he Globe's music critic.  He offered me the score to look at (and I was lost inside of two pages).  It made a huge impression on me at the time, but hasn't worn as well as some of his other pieces.

george

[lescamil]

I've always been a sucker for Tippett's Piano Concerto. It has to be one of the few piano concertos with a virtuoso celesta part (Christopher Rouse's is another) that complements the piano part excellently, and, being the part time orchestral keyboardist I am, I get really excited about these sorts of things, heh. The piece itself has some very interesting harmonies in it and is a very beautiful and well orchestrated work.

[Mirror Image]

I've always been a sucker for Tippett's Piano Concerto. It has to be one of the few piano concertos with a virtuoso celesta part (Christopher Rouse's is another) that complements the piano part excellently, and, being the part time orchestral keyboardist I am, I get really excited about these sorts of things, heh. The piece itself has some very interesting harmonies in it and is a very beautiful and well orchestrated work.

I couldn't agree more. I think it's one of the finest PCs of the 20th Century in fact.

[mjwal]

Just catching up with this. I see there is a general consensus about the Triple Concerto, and I'm happy to join in. There doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for the post-Midsummer Marriage operas. I have always had a weakness for the Tempest-tossed Knot Garden, perhaps I'm just a sucker for parables revolving around psycho-analysis and pseudo-magical manipulation, but the characters are involving if exaggerated. There is an offshoot from that work, Songs for Dov, which for me is one of the most striking and unforgettable orchestral song cycles of the post-WW2 period. Here's an interesting programme about it -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00grk6q
Of course, if you have a very negative attitude to "the 60s" this may be anathema. But it has among other things just tremendous oomph and variety. I only know one recording, once on Virgin, which I see is on a useful 2-CD set on EMI - though I don't know what the Barshai-led recordings are like:

[not edward]

Just catching up with this. I see there is a general consensus about the Triple Concerto, and I'm happy to join in. There doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for the post-Midsummer Marriage operas. I have always had a weakness for the Tempest-tossed Knot Garden, perhaps I'm just a sucker for parables revolving around psycho-analysis and pseudo-magical manipulation, but the characters are involving if exaggerated. There is an offshoot from that work, Songs for Dov, which for me is one of the most striking and unforgettable orchestral song cycles of the post-WW2 period. Here's an interesting programme about it -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00grk6q
Of course, if you have a very negative attitude to "the 60s" this may be anathema. But it has among other things just tremendous oomph and variety. I only know one recording, once on Virgin, which I see is on a useful 2-CD set on EMI - though I don't know what the Barshai-led recordings are like:

Don't know about the Ritual Dances, but Barshai's concerto for double string orchestra is great, and every bit as much a staple of the Tippett discography as Ogdon in the piano concerto and the composer-led Corelli fantasia.

Actually, that two-CD set would be a pretty much ideal introduction to the composer for anyone none-too-modernist inclined; four accessible Tippett classics, a couple of charming minor works and one example of the composer's more difficult 60s style.

[snyprrr]

Listened to the first movement of the PC, due to the overwhelming positive criticism. Very nice gamelan like quality. You guys are giving me a Tippett bug!

[lescamil]

Listened to the first movement of the PC, due to the overwhelming positive criticism. Very nice gamelan like quality. You guys are giving me a Tippett bug!

If you want something a bit more gamelan-like that Tippett composed, try the Triple Concerto, especially the middle movement. I've never really thought of the Piano Concerto as a gamelan-like piece, to be honest.

[raduneo]

I got more into Tippett lately. His piano concerto is truly great. I love his second symphony (I have yet to hear his 3rd and 4th), and his Triple Concerto is a very unique piece ( I mean that in a good way!).

Of course the Double Concerto and his Corelli Fantasy are nothing short of sublime (the recording conducted by Tippett himself).

I have yet to order a Ahild of our time and Rose Lake, but I will not wait long!!! My favorite English composer after Vaughn Williams and Britten so far!

Stupid question:  in his "A child of our time", are the spirituals sung by African Americans? That would make more sense to me.

[not edward]

I got more into Tippett lately. His piano concerto is truly great. I love his second symphony (I have yet to hear his 3rd and 4th), and his Triple Concerto is a very unique piece ( I mean that in a good way!).

Of course the Double Concerto and his Corelli Fantasy are nothing short of sublime (the recording conducted by Tippett himself).

I have yet to order a Ahild of our time and Rose Lake, but I will not wait long!!! My favorite English composer after Vaughn Williams and Britten so far!

Stupid question:  in his "A child of our time", are the spirituals sung by African Americans? That would make more sense to me.

Not usually, though I'm sure that it's been done. I think Tippett's view was that the spirituals were music with a universal message that transcended racial/national identities, and thus could be used as a structural and emotional linchpin very much as Bach used chorale melodies.

If you get the Colin Davis recording of Rose Lake  (I have both it and the Hickox, and do prefer Davis by a small but significant margin):

[asin]B00069I6QA[/asin]

.. you also get the chance to dip into the truly eccentric side of the composer, with his own recording of The Vision of St. Augustine. I'm very much a believer in the work, as despite its flaws there's really nothing else like it, but it's certainly an acquired taste.

[snyprrr]

Pulled out String Quartet No.4 (Lindsays), and didn't get passed the first movement (wasn't in the mood for something so meaty). I recall the whole thing being very agitated and busy; what do you think?

[Luke]

The 4th Quartet is quite a tough nut, as here Tippett is working with sonorities that are really orchestral in type. It is a much less 'quartetty' quartet than its predecessors, which are fabulous models of how to write for the ensemble. That is not to say that it is a weaker work - no, in fact I think it is potentially both the most attractive and the most powerful of all 5, and also the most typical of its composer, in some respects. But it is a hard one to pull off

Tippett realised that this quartet could stand to gain from the less tense, exposed textures of a bigger ensemble, which is why he and Meirion Bowen reworked it into a version for string orchestra called Water out of Sunlight, which is the one major Tippett piece I have not heard, and I would love to, because I"m sure it
sounds amazing. The title 'Water out of Sunlight' comes from TS Eliot - Tippett decided to call this because he wanted to be more public about the music's link to Eliot's Four Quartets than he had been with the original piece.

Perhaps this Eliot link will help a listener to find a way in, I'm not sure. These are the lines in question:

Dry the pool, dry concrete, brown edged,
And the pool was filled with water out of sunlight.
And the lots rose, quietly, quietly,
The surface glittered out of heart of light,/And they were behind us, reflected in the pool.
Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty.
Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children,
Hidden excitedly, containing laughter.
Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
Time past and time future
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.

Much clearer than this, if one gets beond the opening pages of the quartet, is its enormous indebtedness to Beethoven. More than that, the piece is a homage to LVB, and contains its own lengthy, wild fugue which is clearly referencing the Beethoven's op 133. Finally, some of the more delicate pages of the quartet clearly operate in exactly the same world as some of the writing for string trio in the roughly contemporaneous Triple Concerto. I find it useful to be aware of that - in the concerto Tippett garlands the trio with fragrant gamelans of bells and vibes and tuned gongs and celesta and glockenspiel; the atmosphere is languid and spicy, sleepily ultra-lyrical. The quartet is shorn of those tinkling, enveloping sexy sounds, of course, but an awareness that Tippett associated this particular texture with that kind of lulling exotic lyricism is helpful.

[starrynight]

I'm English and I don't even drink tea lol.  Don't know if Tippett was particularly fond of it or not...

Anyway onto the music, I can't say I'm particularly a fan of Tippett.  Not that I think he is terrible, it's just that there are so many other composers to listen to as well and he hasn't really been a priority to me.

[snyprrr]

The 4th Quartet is quite a tough nut, as here Tippett is working with sonorities that are really orchestral in type. It is a much less 'quartetty' quartet than its predecessors, which are fabulous models of how to write for the ensemble. That is not to say that it is a weaker work - no, in fact I think it is potentially both the most attractive and the most powerful of all 5, and also the most typical of its composer, in some respects. But it is a hard one to pull off

Tippett realised that this quartet could stand to gain from the less tense, exposed textures of a bigger ensemble, which is why he and Meirion Bowen reworked it into a version for string orchestra called Water out of Sunlight, which is the one major Tippett piece I have not heard, and I would love to, because I"m sure it
sounds amazing. The title 'Water out of Sunlight' comes from TS Eliot - Tippett decided to call this because he wanted to be more public about the music's link to Eliot's Four Quartets than he had been with the original piece.

Perhaps this Eliot link will help a listener to find a way in, I'm not sure. These are the lines in question:

Dry the pool, dry concrete, brown edged,
And the pool was filled with water out of sunlight.
And the lots rose, quietly, quietly,
The surface glittered out of heart of light,/And they were behind us, reflected in the pool.
Then a cloud passed, and the pool was empty.
Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children,
Hidden excitedly, containing laughter.
Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.
Time past and time future
What might have been and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.

Much clearer than this, if one gets beond the opening pages of the quartet, is its enormous indebtedness to Beethoven. More than that, the piece is a homage to LVB, and contains its own lengthy, wild fugue which is clearly referencing the Beethoven's op 133. Finally, some of the more delicate pages of the quartet clearly operate in exactly the same world as some of the writing for string trio in the roughly contemporaneous Triple Concerto. I find it useful to be aware of that - in the concerto Tippett garlands the trio with fragrant gamelans of bells and vibes and tuned gongs and celesta and glockenspiel; the atmosphere is languid and spicy, sleepily ultra-lyrical. The quartet is shorn of those tinkling, enveloping sexy sounds, of course, but an awareness that Tippett associated this particular texture with that kind of lulling exotic lyricism is helpful.

I'll have to find some 'mood' then!

[Karl Henning]

I know I have got this quartet somewhere, but I don't know that I've ever listened to it . . . .

[Mirror Image]

I've been getting back into Tippett after reading Edward's post about The Rose Lake, so I ordered Hickox's recording with the Ritual Dances. I'm really looking forward to this, but I think Tippett, like any composer, has his weak points. I could barely make it through his symphony cycle, but perhaps I was just expecting too much from the music. A Child Of Our Time is essential Tippett. Of course, the Piano Concerto, which seems to be mentioned here a good bit is just outstanding from start to finish. I really like his string orchestra works too. I haven't ventured into his operas yet, but I imagine this will be something I'll dive into eventually. So far, I prefer Hickox to Colin Davis in Tippett, but I would really like to get those Nimbus recordings with Tippett conducting.

[Mirror Image]

Today has been kind of a Tippett listening day for me. I'm currently listening to his Symphony No. 1 w/ Hickox/Bournemouth SO and what a magnificent symphony this is! When I first heard this symphony a year or so ago, it failed to make much of an impression on me as did most of the Tippett I heard, but I'm really enjoying his music now. It seems that for some composers the longer I stay away, the better their music comes across to me. I bought two Tippett recordings tonight:

[asin]B000025ZJT[/asin]

My second recording of A Child of Our Time:

[asin]B000000AQR[/asin]

[Luke]

Both are fabulous recordings, essential for any Tippett collection, the Midsummer Marriage one especially. Glad to hear you're enjoying this wonderful composer more - I wss thinking of your previous post today, actually, as I listened to the 2nd Symphony, one of Tippett;s most fully-achieved works. I could talk about Tippett all day, though - he's a composer I can get heavily addicted to., one of my very favourites!

[Mirror Image]

Both are fabulous recordings, essential for any Tippett collection, the Midsummer Marriage one especially. Glad to hear you're enjoying this wonderful composer more - I wss thinking of your previous post today, actually, as I listened to the 2nd Symphony, one of Tippett;s most fully-achieved works. I could talk about Tippett all day, though - he's a composer I can get heavily addicted to., one of my very favourites!

This really great to hear, Luke! I know you're a huge Tippett fan and I've read a lot of posts on this very thread and I have to thank you for some of your insight and thoughtful comments in regards to this great man's music. Allow me to list the recordings I own for you so maybe we can compare notes (so to speak):

-The Symphonies - Hickox, Bournemouth, 3 CDs, Chandos
-Symphonies 1-4, Ritual Dances, various orchestral works, C. Davis, Solti, Marriner, LSO, CSO, 5 CDs, Decca
-A Child of Our Time, Choral Works, Boyhood's End, The Knot Garden, Davis, various performers, 4 CDs, Decca
-Double Concerto, Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, Andrew Davis, BBC Symphony Orch., Telarc
-The Rose Lake, The Vision of St. Augustine, C. Davis, M. Tippett, London Symphony Orchestra, RCA
-The Rose Lake, Ritual Dances, Richard Hickox, BBC National Orch. of Wales, Hybrid SACD, Chandos
-Piano Concerto, Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli, Richard Hickox, Howard Shelley, Bournemouth Symphony, Chandos
-Piano Concerto, Piano Sonatas, John Ogdon, C. Davis, Philharmonia Orch., EMI

[Mirror Image]

It has been mentioned many, many times before, especially by critics, but it seems that Tippett can't escape the criticism of being a rather uneven and flawed composer. This could be said of any composer. There are no composers that are perfect. Tippett also gets the criticism that he's overstepping his bounds in regards to his own musical ability. Besides Britten, I don't think you'll find a more unique 20th Century British composer. His music, as Luke has so elegantly pointed out, came from his heart. There aren't any mind games happening in Tippett's music. I read that Tippett would not even write a piece of music until he had a clear idea of what he wanted to say. His work ethic was just awe-inspiring. Could he be eccentric? Of course, but so could many other composers. I'm really connecting with Tippett's music and the more I read about him, the more I admire him.

[starrynight]

I'm not surprised at the criticisms, though I haven't read much about him.  Is overambition a good thing?  It could be said most classical composers are ambitious in a sense.  Certainly people have said his music comes from the heart, though is that just a comment on the style as I suppose as you could say that in general about many other composers too.  Some I suppose may use a more reticent style, but that could also be expressive at times.  What people probably mean is that even when his music is lighter it might still still feel intense in a way.  That may appeal to some people more or give a greater sounding importance to his music.  This was one of things behind my comment before about the 'tearoom' title, it probably gives a wrong impression of his style.   

I will give him another go sometime though I have wondered in the past why he specifically became more famous than other composers.  I think the ambition part of it is probably behind that, same maybe with Britten.  Getting big commissions and big publicised recordings and performances as a result will make critics take notice of you.  And it's better to be taken notice of than to be completely ignored, even if there are criticisms.