Kissin/Davis with LSO Beethoven Piano Concerto Cycle - Opinions?

[bluto32]

I am fairly new to collecting classical music, and am looking to acquire a modern recording of the full cycle of Beethoven's piano concertos.
The only cycle I have is a recent Sony reissue of Fleisher/Szell which is great (and includes terrific Brahms concertos too), but it would be nice to own a more recent recording in better sound.

I've heard a few clips of the Kissin/Davis cycle from 2007 with the LSO which seems to have very high audio quality as well as a fiery performance from Kissin. However, a review on Musicweb International states that: "Sir Colin is also caught out having a little moan to himself as well, which can be a little off-putting in the slow movements, as well as plenty of sotto voce vocalisations elsewhere". To anyone with this cycle, are these noises really apparent/frequent? No other reviews I have found online mention this, and I didn't notice anything obvious on the clips I listened to.

Any other opinions about this cycle would be welcome.

Bluto

[Sergeant Rock]

I am fairly new to collecting classical music, and am looking to acquire a modern recording of the full cycle of Beethoven's piano concertos.
The only cycle I have is a recent Sony reissue of Fleisher/Szell which is great (and includes terrific Brahms concertos too), but it would be nice to own a more recent recording in better sound.

I've heard a few clips of the Kissin/Davis cycle from 2007 with the LSO which seems to have very high audio quality as well as a fiery performance from Kissin. However, a review on Musicweb International states that: "Sir Colin is also caught out having a little moan to himself as well, which can be a little off-putting in the slow movements, as well as plenty of sotto voce vocalisations elsewhere". To anyone with this cycle, are these noises really apparent/frequent? No other reviews I have found online mention this, and I didn't notice anything obvious on the clips I listened to.

Any other opinions about this cycle would be welcome.

Bluto

I can't comment on those specific recordings but, yes, Sir Colin is well-known for being an audible part of his recordings. Like Bernstein's stomping, Celibidache's exhortations at climactic moments, and Glenn Gould's yodeling, I find it endearing. Reminds me there's a human being involved.

As for a modern cycle, you might want to consider Olli Mustonen. Here's what Jens (jlaurson) had to say about it:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg644154.html#msg644154

Sarge

[Todd]

The Kissin/Davis cycle is quite good, and certainly beat my expectations.  Vocalizing doesn't bother me too much, so to the extent Davis makes noise, it doesn't detract from the proceedings.

I must state that there are modern cycles (ie, digital) that I prefer (eg, Pollini/Abbado, Bronfman/Zinman, Kuerti/A. Davis, Sherman/Neumann), but if you can get the Kissin set for a nice price, it's worth the dough.

(The Mustonen set shall be mine soon enough.)

Good thing you didn't ask about older sets . . .

[Karl Henning]

(* chortle *)

[prémont]

beethoven's piano concertos are quite a hobby for me for decades. i own 87 sets right now which i rate constantly and kissin wouldn't be even my 20th choice today.

So I understand that this was meant litterally in the other thread. I would like to ask you: Which were the guiding principles in your choices, and which ones do you consider the top ten?

[kishnevi]

I've had Kissin for a number of years,  and never felt the need to reach for him in preference to any of the others.   I don't remember any heavy breathing on the part of Sir Colin, however.

Shelley-Opera of the North rates a 9?  Dark horse there. 

There is a practical reason that you might not want the Kissin--it contains only the five concertos.  Some other cycles, like Perahia or Goode,  are like that, but many cycles couple the Emperor with the Choral Fantasy or the Triple Concerto.  I don't have the Fleisher (just the Fourth as a single CD) but I think it comes with a Mozart concerto.  So, since you are a beginner, you might want to get a set that has either the Triple Concerto or the Fantasy.  I'd suggest Pollini/Abbado if you go for the first alternative, Bronfman/Zinman if you go for the second.  The Pollini is available as a 3 CD set, the Bronfman (I think) only as individual CDs.  Or if you are looking to truly stretch, there are sets which contain the concertos and a full cycle of the piano sonatas (Brendel and Gulda are the ones I know of off the top of my head--but they don't probably qualify as "modern sound", especially the Gulda--and then there's Gould, who didn't record all the sonatas, doesn't qualify as modern sound, and has some very serious vocalizing on top of it all.)  As Annie's post indicates, there's a wide field to choose from, and I seem to have only eight complete sets, so there's plenty I haven't heard.

Make that nine--I'd forgotten about Aimard/Harnoncourt, which comes with the Choral Fantasy, but it comes not only as a separate set but as part of a larger box with the symphonies,  Missa Solemnis, and some other stuff conducted by Harnoncourt with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe, and I think the full box is worth getting, albeit a bit pricey.

[kishnevi]

i'd go with perahia/haitink or bronfman/zinman set.

it's only the fourth. I like his 4th, his 3rd is fine and the rest is slightly above average in my opinion.

Yes, I like the Perahia set, but it's a concertos only set, and at this stage in the OP's collection,  I think a set that includes the Choral Fantasy, the Triple Concerto or (like Mustonen, of which I only know what Jens has written) the Violin Concerto disguised as a Piano Concerto, would be better.   Unless he's already got separate recordings of the Fantasy or Triple Concerto, in which case it's not so imperative to get a set that includes them.

Of course, the Bronfman is part of a larger series that includes the symphonies, overtures, and violin and triple concertos, but AFAIK only the symphonies have been boxed up as a set. The rest is all individual CDs.

[prémont]

perhaps you should elaborate both your questions and why you are asking.

I am asking because you asked a similar question a few days ago, and I wanted to see how you would answer such a question yourself.
It seems to me that you favour pluralism in the same way as I do, - and yes, I meant the artistic rating when I asked for the top ten.

8      Aimard   Harnoncourt   Chamber Orchestra of Europe
6      Arrau   Galliera   Philharmonia
6      Backhaus   schmidt-isserstedt   Vienna Philharmonic
6      Barenboim   Klemperer   New PhilHarmonia
6      Blumental   Wagner   Vienna Symphony
7      Brendel   Wallberg   Vienna Symphony
9      Bronfman   Zinman   Zurich Tonhalle
8      Fleisher   Szell   Cleveland
7      Gilels   Sanderling   Czech Philharmonic
8      Gilels   Masur   USSR State Symphony
8      Gilels   Szell   Cleveland
10      Gilels   Ludwig   Philharmonia
7      Gulda   stein   Vienna Philharmonic
5      Immerseel   Weil   Tafelmusik
7      Kempff   Leitner   Berlin Philharmonic
8      Kempff   Van Kempen   Berlin Philharmonic
9      Kovacevich   Davis   BBC Symphony
8      Lubin   Hogwood   Academy of Ancient Music
6      Rosel   Flor   Berlin Radio Symphony
8      Schnabel   Sargent   London Symphony
8      Solomon   Cluytens   Philharmonia
7      Sugitani   Oskamp   Berlin Symphony
7      Tan    Norrington   London Classical Players
8      Zacharias   Vonk   Dresden Staatskapelle

These are the few from you long list,I know. If this is an artistic rating I would rate some of them higher, but agree that the Gilels/Ludwig is the top one.

[bluto32]

Thank you all very much for taking the time to reply.

There is another Davis cycle that has taken my interest - that with Kovacevich. It was reissued only a few months ago by Australian Eloquence, and for only £18 one gets plenty of extras with the 5 concertos: the unfinished piano concerto, the violin concerto, and the 2 violin romances. It seems to be a very well regarded cycle, but the recordings are from 1969-74 and therefore ADD rather than the DDD I was looking out for.

What is the CD sound quality like of these? The Grooveshark/We7 tracks I've heard online seem to have better dynamic range than the Perahia/Haitink set (i.e. to my ears, the volume goes from "pp to FF" on Kovacevich vs "p to F" on Perahia) but it's hard to tell the overall recording quality without the actual CD.

Also, given Sarge's comment about Sir Colin generally, is there any humming/heavy breathing on the Kovacevich cycle?

Bluto

[Todd]

Kovacevich/Davis is better than Kissin/Davis.  Sound is excellent, with an altogether acceptable level of hiss.  Davis is less audible.  (I can't recall any major noises coming from the podium, but again, it doesn't really bother me.)

[jwinter]

 Quote from: Todd on Today at 03:09:29 PM

Kovacevich/Davis is better than Kissin/Davis.  Sound is excellent, with an altogether acceptable level of hiss.  Davis is less audible.  (I can't recall any major noises coming from the podium, but again, it doesn't really bother me.)

 
I haven't heard Kissin's set (though I have heard him in Chopin & other things), but I have a hard time imagining that his Beethoven would be superior to Kovacevich's.  A Beethoven rec from Todd can be safely deposited in any bank around the world.

Not to make things yet more confusing, but if you want Davis at the podium, personally I'd go with Arrau  .  More lyrical than Kovacevich, but that's just me.

[Ataraxia]

Not to make things yet more confusing, but if you want Davis at the podium, personally I'd go with Arrau  .  More lyrical than Kovacevich, but that's just me.

Yes, just buy that whole Arrau box of LvB sonatas and concertos. 

[jwinter]

Yes, just buy that whole Arrau box of LvB sonatas and concertos. 

To clarify, the Arrau box has the earlier set with Haitink, not Davis.  Gah, this does get confusing...

[Ataraxia]

To clarify, the Arrau box has the earlier set with Haitink, not Davis.  Gah, this does get confusing...

Oops. My bad. 

[Ataraxia]

you might be mistaken here, my arrau/davis is with piano sonata 6 and diabelli variations. the 14 cd set with inbal's triple is arrau/haitink

I am quite mistaken.

[jwinter]

I am quite mistaken.

And so you must live out your days in shame...

Actually, as a purchase I'd certainly recommend the Arrau sonata cycle box with Haitink over the Davis set -- much better bang for the buck, the sonatas are superb, and the concertos with Haitnk are excellent (I went with Davis following the thread from Kissin & Kovacevich...)

[Mandryka]

perhaps you should elaborate both your questions and why you are asking.

about the principles; do you ask for relative words, such as i want the first concerto full of fire and pomp. if so, it'd take a quite long answer, i'm not sure if i can find the time to explain what my taste is in his concertos and don't know what good it'd do. ( i meant i can mention what can be measured in recordings, but i believe i can relay very little about what I actually hear in them). if you need a restricted view, i have measurable expectations for each concerto and, for me, the best performance is the one that i am unaware of the performance that complies fully with my prerequisite expectations. maybe a sentence per each?

about the list; it depends on your angle. i don't have any perfect sets and especially how you deal with the fourth is a dealbreaker rating the whole set for me. i guess i'd answer this one after understanding what exactly you are looking for.


...or may be i can give it a start buy simply copying my artistic rates for G major excluding if it's in a set or the sound quality. i use a software called expert choice, an analytical decision making tool which i prepared models for my best pieces for a while now . do not ask the details...


4      Afanassiev   Soudant   Salzburg Mozarteum
8      Aimard   Harnoncourt   Chamber Orchestra of Europe
6      Arrau   Galliera   Philharmonia
8      Arrau   Davis   Dresden Staatskapelle
8      Arrau   Haitink   Royal Concertgebauw
6      Ashkenazy      Cleveland
7      Ashkenazy   Mehta   Vienna Philharmonic
7      Ashkenazy   Solti   Chicago Symphony
6      Ax   Previn   Royal Philharmonic
6      Backhaus   schmidt-isserstedt   Vienna Philharmonic
6      Badura Skoda   Scherchen   Vienna State Opera
6      Badura Skoda      Collegium Aureum
6      Barenboim   Klemperer   New PhilHarmonia
6      Barenboim      Berlin Philharmonic
7      Berezovsky   Dausgaard   Swedish Chamber
6      Blumental   Wagner   Vienna Symphony
6      Brautigam   parrott   norrkoping symphony
7      Brendel   Wallberg   Vienna Symphony
8      Brendel   Haitink   London Philharmonic
8      Brendel   Rattle   Vienna Philharmonic
9      Brendel   Levine   Chicago Symphony
9      Bronfman   Zinman   Zurich Tonhalle
6      Ciccolini   Ceccato   Pomeriggi Musicali
7      Curzon   Kubelik   Bavarian Radio Symphony
5      Dikov   Tabakov   Sofia Philharmonic
5      Douglas      Camarata Ireland
5      Duchable   Nelson   Ensemble Orchestral de Paris
9      Fellner   nagano   montreal symphony
?      Fellner   Marriner   Academy of St Martin in the Fields
8      Fleisher   Szell   Cleveland
7      Gilels   Sanderling   Czech Philharmonic
8      Gilels   Masur   USSR State Symphony
8      Gilels   Szell   Cleveland
10      Gilels   Ludwig   Philharmonia
5      Goode   fischer i.   Budapest Festival
4      Gould   bernstein   New York Philharmonic
7      Grimaud   Masur   New York Philharmonic
7      Grinberg   Jarvi N.   USSR State Symphony
7      Gulda   stein   Vienna Philharmonic
5      Immerseel   Weil   Tafelmusik
7      Katchen   Gamba   London Symphony
7      Kempff   Leitner   Berlin Philharmonic
8      Kempff   Van Kempen   Berlin Philharmonic
6      Kissin   Davis   London Symphony
9      Kovacevich   Davis   BBC Symphony
6      Kuerti   Davis   Toronto Symphony
7      Larrocha   Chailly   Berlin Radio Symphony
8      Levin   Gardiner   Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique
8      Lewis   belohlavek   BBC Symphony
6      Lill   Gibson   Scottish National
6      Lill   Weller   City of Birmingham Symphony
8      Lubin   Hogwood   Academy of Ancient Music
7      Lupu   Mehta   Israel Philharmonic
7      Moravec   Neumann   Czech Philharmonic
8      Moravec   belohlavek   Prague Philharmonic
6      Mustonen      Tapiola Sinfonietta
5      Newman   Simon   Philomusica Antiqua de Londres
5      Panenka   Smetacek   Prague Symphony
10      Perahia   Haitink   Royal Concertgebauw
7      Pletnev   Gansch   Russian National
5      Pludermacher   Atzmon   Brittany Symphony
7      Pollini   Bohm   Vienna Philharmonic
7      Pollini   Bohm   Vienna Philharmonic
8      Pollini   Abbado   Berlin Philharmonic
7      Roll   Shelley   Royal Philharmonic
6      Rosel   Flor   Berlin Radio Symphony
7      Rubinstein   Barenboim   London Philharmonic
7      Rubinstein   Beecham   Royal Philharmonic
7      Rubinstein   Krips   Symphony of the Air
7      Rubinstein   Leinsdorf   Boston Symphony
7      Schiff   Haitink   Dresden Staatskapelle
8      Schnabel   sargent   London Symphony
6      Schoonderwoerd      Ensemble Cristofori
7      Serkin   Kubelik   Bavarian Radio Symphony
7      Serkin   Ozawa   Boston Symphony
8      Serkin   Caracciolo/scaglia   Orchestra Sinfonica di Roma Della
8      Serkin   Ormandy   PhiladelPhia
9      Shelley      Opera North
7      Simon   Belohlavek   Prague Philharmonic
8      Solomon   Cluytens   Philharmonia
7      Sugitani   Oskamp   Berlin SYmphony
7      Tan    Norrington   London Classical Players
7      Uchida   Sanderling   Royal Concertgebauw
6      Vladar   Wordsworth   Capella Istropolitana
7      Vracevha   Kofman   Kiev Chamber
6      Weissenberg   Karajan   Berlin Philharmonic
8      Yudina   Sanderling   Leningrad Symphony
8      Zacharias   Vonk   Dresden Staatskapelle
6      Zacharias   Jordan   Orchestre de la Suisse Romande
8      Zimerman   Bernstein   Vienna Philharmonic

What is the record of Moravec/Neumann?

Ones I've enjoyed which you don't seem to have considered is  Serkin/Toscanini. and Hoffman/Ormandy. Also there are some intersting things in Schnabel/Stock in the central movement, and i recenly discovered and enjoyed Casadesus/Van Beinum. I like the rather quirky one with Fou Ts'Ong too.

It's interesting that you rate the two Badura Skoda records so closely, while I remember prefering the Collegium Aureum.

Thanks also for prompting me to listen to Perahia/Haitink. Haitink sounds wonderful and inspired and fresh, and there's an instantly audible rapport between piano and orchestra. An outstanding new find for me. I downloaded Shelley too, but haven't had the chance to hear it.

[Mandryka]

what do you mean? it's a complete set from supraphon...

I didn't know there was a G major concerto with Neumann. I have the one with Martin Turnovsky. Is there one with Karel Ancerl too?

[bluto32]

Ooh... Decisions, decisions.

I think I'll go for Perahia/Haitink first given that it has high quality sound and is so highly regarded, and may well treat myself to Kovacevich/Davis later on.
(Since my first post I have noticed that Gramophone's review also makes reference to Davis being audible in the Kissin recording, which is a shame - it's the kind of thing I wouldn't be able to blot out once I noticed.)

Thanks again for all the advice/recommendations.

Bluto

PS: The other recent cycle I had considered was Lewis/Belohlavek. Unfortunately, the clips on Harmonia Mundi (as well as Amazon & Presto Classical) appear to have too much reverberation on the piano for my liking.