Getting at Handel's operas and oratorios

Started by Tancata, July 10, 2007, 01:25:37 PM

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DarkAngel

Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 09, 2009, 12:19:15 PM
Some of those old Gardiner recordings are beyond horrific, in fact I have only two Gardiner recordings left in my epic A-list Handel collection, he's not what I'd call a good Handel interpreter for the most part.

Another piece of good Handel recording advice, stay away from anything by Harnoncourt.

Which two Gardiner recordings are still in your top list?

Professional critics in general seem to like his past Handel works, some even get rosettes in Penguin Guide.
Also I notice he has older Erato/EMI from the 1980s and newer redone Phillips versions for some of those.
I tend to always give JEG a close look since his Bach works are so well done.

I have never been a big fan of Harnoncourt for Bach/Handel works so I have passed on his 6 CD Handel boxsets  


Elgarian

#241
Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 09, 2009, 12:19:15 PM
Some of those old Gardiner recordings are beyond horrific, in fact I have only two Gardiner recordings left in my epic A-list Handel collection, he's not what I'd call a good Handel interpreter for the most part.

Don't know them myself, but just looking here through the Gramophone and Penguin Guides for some of the Gardiner recordings Dark Angel has bought: L'Allegro gets Gramophone's highest accolade of three 'discs'. Penguin gives 3 stars to both the L'Allegro and the Tamerlano. Israel in Egypt and Zadok get 'key' status in Penguin, and an unheard-of four stars. Now, I do disagree with their assessments myself sometimes - but are these recordings really so bad, Rod?

Rod Corkin

Quote from: DarkAngel on June 09, 2009, 12:31:55 PM
Which two Gardiner recordings are still in your top list?

Professional critics in general seem to like his past Handel works, some even get rosettes in Penguin Guide.
Also I notice he has older Erato/EMI from the 1980s and newer redone Phillips versions for some of those.
I tend to always give JEG a close look since his Bach works are so well done.

Handel performance and interpretation has moved on a hell of a way since those days, but the critics haven't and neither has Gardiner who doesn't record Handel any more. If you really want to know what's what you know where to ask it.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Coopmv

Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 09, 2009, 12:19:15 PM
Some of those old Gardiner recordings are beyond horrific, in fact I have only two Gardiner recordings left in my epic A-list Handel collection, he's not what I'd call a good Handel interpreter for the most part.

Another piece of good Handel recording advice, stay away from anything by Harnoncourt.

Who do you consider to be a good Handel interpreter?  Once you remove Gardiner and Harnoncourt, only Hogwood and Pinnock are still in contention.  Most of my Handel's oratorios/choral works are actually Hogwood's recordings.  I actually have many Handel's works spread across these four conductors.

Elgarian

Quote from: Coopmv on June 09, 2009, 06:17:52 PM
Once you remove Gardiner and Harnoncourt, only Hogwood and Pinnock are still in contention.

Isn't that a bit extreme? How about:
Christie (Acis & Galatea, Alcina, Orlando)
McGegan (Ariodante)
King (L'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato)

etc etc.

Not to mention Curtis, whose recordings are providing me with a lot of exciting new material at the moment.

Rod Corkin

Quote from: Coopmv on June 09, 2009, 06:17:52 PM
Who do you consider to be a good Handel interpreter?  Once you remove Gardiner and Harnoncourt, only Hogwood and Pinnock are still in contention.  Most of my Handel's oratorios/choral works are actually Hogwood's recordings.  I actually have many Handel's works spread across these four conductors.

I think you're about 15 years behind the times Coop, but that's a familiar GMG trait. You know where to go if you want to know what's what about Handel.  ;)
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

DarkAngel

#246
Quote from: Coopmv on June 09, 2009, 06:17:52 PM
Who do you consider to be a good Handel interpreter?  Once you remove Gardiner and Harnoncourt, only Hogwood and Pinnock are still in contention.  Most of my Handel's oratorios/choral works are actually Hogwood's recordings.  I actually have many Handel's works spread across these four conductors.

Well those are the best known group of Handel opera/oratorio conductors from the 1980s, but new group of Handel conductors has arisen from 1990s going forward as Elgarian mentions:

-Christie, McGegan, King
also
-McCreesh, Jacobs, Minkowski plus newer ones like Petrou/MDG and Spering/CPO

But by far the most prolific current conductor of Handel opera is Alan Curtis, besides his older Virgin label boxset he is now very active for Archiv label just recently releasing Alcina and Ezio



DarkAngel

Quote from: DarkAngel on June 07, 2009, 01:12:45 PM
OK guys.........the current Joshua set is no problem, booklet is thin enough to slide in/out no problem (type size is microscopic)

I will probably use the sage advice of Elgarian and break off two of the four retaining tabs from jewel case to facilitate booklet access
of other two Hyperion sets on order

My Hyperion package arrived in very short order, but as feared both Handel sets are in the 2 CD slimcase  :(

I actually ended up breaking off all 4 booklet retaining tabs using straight edge screw driver, booklet is now freed of its shakles and can be freely acessed without mangling cover each time........a small sacrifice I suppose considering the cheap sale price

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 10, 2009, 12:00:04 AM
I think you're about 15 years behind the times Coop, but that's a familiar GMG trait. You know where to go if you want to know what's what about Handel.  ;)

::)

Okay, "Mr. Authority", what exactly is "15 years behind the times" about recommending Minkowski, Spering, Neumann, and the like in Handel's stage works?

Which is EXACTLY what I've been doing for years now on GMG. Oh, what's that you say? You hadn't noticed? Typical Corkster trait.

Also, both Gardiner's and Hogwood's recordings may be "ancient" as far as HIP goes but they're still eminently recommendable, despite your babbling.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Coopmv

Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 10, 2009, 12:00:04 AM
I think you're about 15 years behind the times Coop, but that's a familiar GMG trait. You know where to go if you want to know what's what about Handel.  ;)

You sound like a true believer of newer is better, which I just do not buy.  Better SQ does not necessarily translate into higher level of virtuosity.  When it comes to soprano for Handel oratorios, I have yet to find someone that is better than Emma Kirkby.

Coopmv

Quote from: Elgarian on June 09, 2009, 11:44:46 PM
Isn't that a bit extreme? How about:
Christie (Acis & Galatea, Alcina, Orlando)
McGegan (Ariodante)
King (L'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato)

etc etc.

Not to mention Curtis, whose recordings are providing me with a lot of exciting new material at the moment.

I happen to have recordings by all of the above and have in fact bought every Handel's oratorio recorded by the King's Consort on Hyperion just last month.  Mind you that most of those oratorios are lesser-known that Hogwood, Gardiner and Harnoncourt have never recorded, i.e. Joshua, Deborah, etc.  As such, it is impossible to compare the new comer against the old masters.

Elgarian

Quote from: DarkAngel on June 10, 2009, 03:47:43 PM
My Hyperion package arrived in very short order, but as feared both Handel sets are in the 2 CD slimcase  :(

I actually ended up breaking off all 4 booklet retaining tabs using straight edge screw driver, booklet is now freed of its shakles and can be freely acessed without mangling cover each time........a small sacrifice I suppose considering the cheap sale price

Clearly you're an 'all or nothing' stud-remover; I can sympathise with that. At least your L'Allegro booklet will remain pristine now. Mine shows distinct traces of the tussles I had before I became a True Believer in stud-removal.

Rod Corkin

#252
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 10, 2009, 04:59:13 PM
::)

Okay, "Mr. Authority", what exactly is "15 years behind the times" about recommending Minkowski, Spering, Neumann, and the like in Handel's stage works?

Which is EXACTLY what I've been doing for years now on GMG. Oh, what's that you say? You hadn't noticed? Typical Corkster trait.

Also, both Gardiner's and Hogwood's recordings may be "ancient" as far as HIP goes but they're still eminently recommendable, despite your babbling.

My statement was not directed at you, unless you are also 'Coop', but my statement still stands based on my experience at this site generally. I no-longer discuss Handel recordings in detail here because when I tried the same here two years ago nobody was interested and I created my own site for that purpose. I am 'Mr Authority' because not so long ago there were only a few crap Handel recordings to chose from so I bought them all due to lack of choice. Now things have improved somewhat I was trying to give the guys here the benefit of my costly experience.  If people aren't interested so be it, but there are still a lot of dud recordings being produced even now.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 11, 2009, 02:53:05 AM
My statement was not directed at you, unless you are also 'Coop'...

I don't have to be Coopmv. Your blanket insult included GMG. I'm part of GMG.

Quotebut my statement still stands based on my experience at this site generally.

Your "statement" has nothing of substance.

QuoteI no-longer discuss Handel recordings in detail here because when I tried the same here two years ago nobody was interested and I created my own site for that purpose.

There was plenty of interest in Handel at the time, but not your conspiracy theories.

QuoteI am 'Mr Authority' because not so long ago there were only a few crap Handel recordings to chose from so I bought them all due to lack of choice. Now things have improved somewhat I was trying to give the guys here the benefit of my costly experience.  If people aren't interested so be it, but there are still a lot of dud recordings being produced even now.

And you somehow feel this "experience" gives you the right to repeatedly insult GMG?
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Rod Corkin

#254
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 11, 2009, 05:02:16 AM
I don't have to be Coopmv. Your blanket insult included GMG. I'm part of GMG.

Your "statement" has nothing of substance.

There was plenty of interest in Handel at the time, but not your conspiracy theories.

And you somehow feel this "experience" gives you the right to repeatedly insult GMG?

I have ventured no conspiracy theories at all here, my name is not Newman. I once ventured the notion that the musical establishment in the 20th Century pushed Handel to one side thanks to their cult like obsession with Bach. This is not a theory it is a fact, a fact certain people here couldn't.. er.. handle. Other than that there has been nothing of this nature from me. I can accept Mozart actually composed quite a bit of his own music!  

But my 'experience' is as valid as yours, I joined this site just a few weeks after you did! But at that time at least if you didn't dance the the GMG Establishment's tune you were in for a hard time, that I remember very well... ;D
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1790.html  
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

The new erato

It's high time we had some conspiration theories again. What fun!

Coopmv

Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 11, 2009, 08:07:05 AM
I have ventured no conspiracy theories at all here, my name is not Newman. I once ventured the notion that the musical establishment in the 20th Century pushed Handel to one side thanks to their cult like obsession with Bach. This is not a theory it is a fact, a fact certain people here couldn't.. er.. handle. Other than that there has been nothing of this nature from me. I can accept Mozart actually composed quite a bit of his own music!  


I am no novice when it comes to Handel's works.  Proof: I have over 20 versions of Messiah (between LP's, open-reel tapes and CD's) and there are few Handel's oratorios that I do not already own - the lesser-known oratorios by the King's Consort have recently helped build out my collection.  Marc Minkowski is the only Handel's conductors whose recordings are not yet represented in my collection.  However, that will soon change.  My Handel's collection has breadth as well, do you have this set of Concerto Grossi by Karajan?  I do.  Perhaps a little modesty will do you some good, buddy.




Dancing Divertimentian

#257
Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 11, 2009, 08:07:05 AM
I have ventured no conspiracy theories at all here, my name is not Newman. I once ventured the notion that the musical establishment in the 20th Century pushed Handel to one side thanks to their cult like obsession with Bach. This is not a theory it is a fact, a fact certain people here couldn't.. er.. handle.

That's exactly what I'm referring to. It's not a fact at all. ::)

QuoteBut my 'experience' is as valid as yours, I joined this site just a few weeks after you did! But at that time at least if you didn't dance the the GMG Establishment's tune you were in for a hard time, that I remember very well... ;D
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1790.html 

I've been posting on GMG for five or six years, now. Past iterations of GMG are filled with my Handel postings. And not ONCE have I felt pressure from anyone to "dance the GMG establishment"...whatever that is... ::)
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Rod Corkin

Quote from: Coopmv on June 11, 2009, 05:14:47 PM
My Handel's collection has breadth as well, do you have this set of Concerto Grossi by Karajan?  I do. 

I think this proves my point my friend.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

The new erato

Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 12, 2009, 12:18:48 AM
I think this proves my point my friend.
I'm a great Handel fan, but every time I read one of your posts I feel the urge to listen to some Bach to cleanse myself.