Getting at Handel's operas and oratorios

Started by Tancata, July 10, 2007, 01:25:37 PM

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Rod Corkin

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 11, 2009, 08:36:58 PM
That's exactly what I'm referring to. It's not a fact at all. ::)

It is a most demonstrable fact. You can chose to live in denial but history will not be changed by it.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Rod Corkin

Quote from: erato on June 12, 2009, 02:16:03 AM
Must.....play.....some......Bach......before......I.....choke......

We're going though all of the Bach church cantatas too, which is of course a lot of Bach, with a few choice cuts from all of them. So if you are thirsty..
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 12, 2009, 12:23:18 AM
It is a most demonstrable fact. You can chose to live in denial but history will not be changed by it.

You haven't yet even REMOTELY demonstrated this.

And how about actually answering a question for once: I asked you earlier What exactly is "15 years behind the times" about recommending Minkowski, Spering, Neumann...?

...and I'd add McCreesh as well for his Messiah....
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Rod Corkin

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 12, 2009, 04:56:07 AM
...and I'd add McCreesh as well for his Messiah....

You can leave him out for that, it's not a very good recording, but he's done a few more Handel oratorios.
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/classicalmusicmayhem/

Coopmv

Quote from: Rod Corkin on June 12, 2009, 12:18:48 AM
I think this proves my point my friend.

What point?  List your Handel's collection if it is that impressive.  Talk is cheap, my friend.

Coopmv

Quote from: Elgarian on June 09, 2009, 12:37:08 PM
Don't know them myself, but just looking here through the Gramophone and Penguin Guides for some of the Gardiner recordings Dark Angel has bought: L'Allegro gets Gramophone's highest accolade of three 'discs'. Penguin gives 3 stars to both the L'Allegro and the Tamerlano. Israel in Egypt and Zadok get 'key' status in Penguin, and an unheard-of four stars. Now, I do disagree with their assessments myself sometimes - but are these recordings really so bad, Rod?

He thinks he is more qualified than all those reviewers in the Penguin Guides.  But he needs to show his independently verifiable credentials.  He is no different than many of these bloggers purporting to be investment experts when in reality you can lose everything if you take their BS investment advice ...    ::)

FideLeo

Quote from: Coopmv on June 12, 2009, 05:52:33 PM
In case you are not aware, most of Bach's music was no longer performed by the 1830's, less than a century after Bach's death.  It took Felix Mendelssohn, a German Jew who was converted to Christianity to re-discover Bach's work, the St. Matthew Passion in particular. 

But what about the fortunes of Handel's works (especially his operas and oratorios) in the same period? 
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Elgarian

#267
I've been resistant to buying opera DVDs because without the buzz of actually being in a theatre, I tend to find them uninvolving. But there are exceptions (eg Glyndebourne Guilio Cesare); and having noted several recommendations here recently, I took a great interest when I saw that a thing called 'The Handel Collection' had been published:



Two Glyndebourne productions - Rodelinda and Theodora - plus what seems to be a musically illustrated 'Handel in London' documentary. Three DVDs for the price of one seemed like my kind of attractive experiment. Anyway, they arrived yesterday, and I spent a fascinating hour just sampling each of them to get the feel of what I was in for. I enjoyed (in a sad sort of way) walking through London with Sarah Connolly while she sang Scherza Infida, and so that third disc looks as if it might be more interesting than I'd expected. Not too sure about Rodelinda. I watched the first 20 mins or so, and was a bit perturbed by Rodelinda's unconvincing melodramatic gestures, so I'm not sure how I'll get on with this. But Lorraine Hunt's Irene in Theodora seems to be completely showstopping whenever she appears - most people getting this far will be familiar with her performance of 'As with rosy steps ... ', but for anyone who hasn't, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQlt1UxjvWU

And Dawn Upshaw's 'With darkness deep' is quite shattering - her fine acting as well as singing just rips me to pieces. The fear, the desperate brave fragility of her. You can see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyCGmxDYsz4

I have the feeling that despite this, the production as a whole seems a bit too brutal, to tell the truth - the conclusion, with the execution, is really quite bizarre and disturbing in a way I can't define. See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAVrDbkmY1A

So I'm not sure how I'll feel about it when I watch the whole thing through; but that's a personal issue, and there's no doubting the magnificence of this production.

knight66

I do think you might come away with a different opinion of the Theodora once you have watched the whole production. There never were stage directions, as it was written as an oratorio. Although not keen on most of Sellars' productions, I feel this one works powerfully.

As so often can be the case, what happens between the notes can be important. Here the conductor uses extended pauses to stretch the sinus of the drama.

I am not sure whether you have sampled David Daniels yet, but his singing is as good as Hunt-Lieberson's, though her dramatic impact is exceptional. She holds the stage even when standing stock still.

I very much hope you enjoy it.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Coopmv

Quote from: masolino on June 12, 2009, 08:35:45 PM
But what about the fortunes of Handel's works (especially his operas and oratorios) in the same period? 

When the baroque era ended with the death of Handel in 1759, I imagine many of his operas also fell into relative obscurity.  However, Handel's crowning achievement - the Messiah - continued to be performed everywhere English speaking people lived to this day. 

Elgarian

Quote from: knight on June 13, 2009, 02:11:23 AM
I do think you might come away with a different opinion of the Theodora once you have watched the whole production.

Yes, I'm aware that my first impressions from merely skipping about between sections are only that - first impressions. Thanks for the encouragement, Mike.

FideLeo

#271
Quote from: Coopmv on June 13, 2009, 02:35:46 AM
However, Handel's crowning achievement - the Messiah - continued to be performed everywhere English speaking people lived to this day.  

You can say that about Bach's WTC, which has never fallen into obscurity either.   It can't be denied that the true Handel revival arrived much much later than that for Bach's works, at least in concert and recording scenes.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Coopmv

Quote from: masolino on June 13, 2009, 02:45:46 AM
You can say that about Bach's WTC, which has never fallen into obscurity either. 

I really have not read up on the history of WTC during the intervening years since Bach's death in 1750, but you may be right.  However, there is no doubt that Mendelssohn deserves all the credit for "resurrecting" St Matthew Passion.

FideLeo

#273
Quote from: Coopmv on June 13, 2009, 02:50:26 AM
 

I really have not read up on the history of WTC during the intervening years since Bach's death in 1750, but you may be right.

Beethoven knew these from his teacher of early years in Bonn - that should give a fairly good idea of how widespread Bach's keyboard music was in Germany after his death. (The first printed edition of WTC appeared in 1801) BTW, some of JSB's vocal works continued to be performed by his son CPE in public after his death, although hardly in the HIP style as we know it today.  Of course Mendelssohn's revival was very far from HIP as well... :D  

I just found some reference to Howard Smithers' book on the history of oratorio, which seems to suggest that Handel's oratorios were forgetten only briefly in Germany, and performed at music festivals there at some regularities since 1770s.  How about Bach?  I recall reading the anecdote that, when Mozart travelled through Leipzig in 1789, the St Thomas Kantor at the time showed him copies made of JS Bach's motets. Indeed, according to Smithers, the motets and the Magnificat were the first vocal works of Bach published in the 19th century (1802-3, 1811).  The Mass in b and the Passions were all published in 1830s.  (This is not to say that they were unknown before that date: CF Zelter and the Berlin Singakademie privately rehearsed and performed the mass and the passions in the 1790s.  I wonder if any of CPE Bach's influences existed for Zelter, but it is certain that Mendelssohn was a composition student to Zelter in 1810s.  No, I don't have the Smithers book handy, but thanks to google books I was able to do a quick check...
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Coopmv

Quote from: masolino on June 13, 2009, 03:04:29 AM
Beethoven knew these from his teacher of early years in Bonn - that should give a fairly good idea of how widespread Bach's keyboard music was in Germany after his death. (The first printed edition of WTC appeared in 1801) BTW, some of JSB's vocal works continued to be performed by his son CPE in public after his death, although hardly in the HIP style as we know it today.  Of course Mendelssohn's revival was very far from HIP as well... :D  

I just found some reference to Howard Smithers' book on the history of oratorio, which seems to suggest that Handel's oratorios were forgetten only briefly in Germany, and performed at music festivals there at some regularities since 1770s.  How about Bach?  I recall reading the anecdote that, when Mozart travelled through Leipzig in 1789, the St Thomas Kantor at the time showed him copies made of JS Bach's motets. Indeed, according to Smithers, the motets and the Magnificat were the first vocal works of Bach published in the 19th century (1802-3, 1811).  The Mass in b and the Passions were all published in 1830s.  

Apparently Handel's Messiah became so popular after his death that Mozart re-arranged the work to be performed in German.  I have the only such recording on LP for years.  This same recording has been re-issued by some small English label I came across on the MDT website a while back.  I also have the Brockes Passion on LP by Wenzinger, which was sung in German.

 




FideLeo

#275
Quote from: Coopmv on June 13, 2009, 03:28:28 AM
Apparently Handel's Messiah became so popular after his death that Mozart re-arranged the work to be performed in German.  


Sorry but "Handel's oratorios" in the case appear to mean more than just the Messiah.  Judas Maccabaeus was another that was performed in 1770s.  Van Swieten's revivals of Handel oratorios in Vienna included commissions form Mozart to arrange the Messiah and Alexander's Feast, but the latter seems to have been rarely recorded.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Coopmv

Quote from: masolino on June 13, 2009, 03:33:07 AM
Sorry but "Handel's oratorios" in the case appear to mean more than just the Messiah.  Judas Maccabaeus was another that was performed in 1770s.  Van Swieten's revivals of Handel oratorios in Vienna included commissions form Mozart to arrange the Messiah and Alexander's Feast, but the latter seems to have been rarely recorded.

I am aware of that.  You will be hard pressed to find Handel's oratorio other than Messiah being performed in places as diverse as Sydney and the Falkland Islands, wherever English is spoken.  While Messiah may not be the greatest oratorio Handel had composed, neither did Albert Einstein win his Nobel Prize in physics for his theory of relativity ...

DarkAngel

#277
Quote from: Elgarian on June 13, 2009, 01:40:57 AM
I've been resistant to buying opera DVDs because without the buzz of actually being in a theatre, I tend to find them uninvolving. But there are exceptions (eg Glyndebourne Guilio Cesare); and having noted several recommendations here recently, I took a great interest when I saw that a thing called 'The Handel Collection' had been published:



Two Glyndebourne productions - Rodelinda and Theodora - plus what seems to be a musically illustrated 'Handel in London' documentary. Three DVDs for the price of one seemed like my kind of attractive experiment. Anyway, they arrived yesterday, and I spent a fascinating hour just sampling each of them to get the feel of what I was in for. I enjoyed (in a sad sort of way) walking through London with Sarah Connolly while she sang Scherza Infida, and so that third disc looks as if it might be more interesting than I'd expected. Not too sure about Rodelinda. I watched the first 20 mins or so, and was a bit perturbed by Rodelinda's unconvincing melodramatic gestures, so I'm not sure how I'll get on with this. But Lorraine Hunt's Irene in Theodora seems to be completely showstopping whenever she appears - most people getting this far will be familiar with her performance of 'As with rosy steps ... ', but for anyone who hasn't, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQlt1UxjvWU

And Dawn Upshaw's 'With darkness deep' is quite shattering - her fine acting as well as singing just rips me to pieces. The fear, the desperate brave fragility of her. You can see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyCGmxDYsz4

I have the feeling that despite this, the production as a whole seems a bit too brutal, to tell the truth - the conclusion, with the execution, is really quite bizarre and disturbing in a way I can't define. See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAVrDbkmY1A

So I'm not sure how I'll feel about it when I watch the whole thing through; but that's a personal issue, and there's no doubting the magnificence of this production.

Elgarian, a tempting offer for DVD collectors..........but the extremely useful youtube samples convince me that I will not need to purchase this set.  

I have the McCreesh/Archiv Theodora CD set and of course love the vocal work by Hunt in the first sample and her emotional intensity, but the spartan modern stage production of Handel oratorios does not do them justice, seems a bit silly actually. I note the heavenly angel/crucifix symbolism when laying on the execution tables, unfortunately the the static nature of the scence quickly becomes boring

I am not biased against modern productions in general, I just love the recent Rameau Les Palladins which makes brilliant use of rear projection screens for instance, this technique could do wonders for future Handel Oratorio productions me thinks......

Elgarian

Quote from: DarkAngel on June 13, 2009, 06:38:34 AMa tempting offer for DVD collectors..........but the extremely useful youtube samples convince me that I will not need to purchase this set.

Therein lies the value of (a) youtube, and (b) this thread. I'm pleased to have saved you (at least, potentially) a bit of cash.

Coopmv

Quote from: Elgarian on June 13, 2009, 07:18:05 AM
Therein lies the value of (a) youtube, and (b) this thread. I'm pleased to have saved you (at least, potentially) a bit of cash.

YouTube has killed off a potential DVD sale ...     ???