Getting at Handel's operas and oratorios

[Coopmv]

How annoying. Yes, there's a 16/18-ish page booklet with photos, a 4-page essay (in various languages), and chapter listings. I'd be inclined to contact the seller about it.

It is annoying that the seller did not say he did not have the booklet. 

[knight66]

Elgarian,

Re: Handel Arcadian Duets:

I agree. I bought this on the basis of the reviews. But instead of a recital or a concert, it feels like a ragbag of pieces performed by anyone who had time to drop by. I agree the voices are not well matched.

It  very much falls down when compared to other discs of duets that have been discussed on the site over the last few weeks, especially the Ciofi/Di Donato one. I add now: 'Il Duetto Amoroso' on the Helos label. Gillian Fisher, Patricia Kwella and Catherine Denley in three meaty  Italian duologue cantatas. It dates from 1984 with a HIP ensemble from the time. Delightful music, nicely performed. Handel being an inveterate borrower from himself, you will recognise some of the music in other subsequent pieces.

Mike

[Elgarian]

Re: Handel Arcadian Duets:

I agree. I bought this on the basis of the reviews. But instead of a recital or a concert, it feels like a ragbag of pieces performed by anyone who had time to drop by. I agree the voices are not well matched.

It's quite a relief to read your comments, Mike - I found myself thinking, "Look at the names involved in this disc, for Pete's sake! What's wrong with me?" But this isn't about 'stars', it's about coherence - about art consisting of interconnecting components, each fitting in in such a way as to make allowance for all the other components; and that's what seems to be lacking here.

It  very much falls down when compared to other discs of duets that have been discussed on the site over the last few weeks, especially the Ciofi/Di Donato one. I add now: 'Il Duetto Amoroso' on the Helos label. Gillian Fisher, Patricia Kwella and Catherine Denley in three meaty  Italian duologue cantatas. It dates from 1984 with a HIP ensemble from the time. Delightful music, nicely performed. Handel being an inveterate borrower from himself, you will recognise some of the music in other subsequent pieces.

I have that Fisher/Kwella/Denley recording, and I agree with you. It's delectable stuff, and shows the way. I expect you know the lovely companion disc with Fisher & Kwella also on Helios (Aminta e Fillide)? Of course we're not being fair to compare a motley collection of duets with complete cantatas, but even so the issue of complementary voices still counts.

[knight66]

Aminta e Fillide........a new one on me. I will have a little look for it.

Thanks,

Mike

Edit: Now ordered, second hand, so very low price. I imagine you part rags with me over my recent pattern of buying. I have been deliberately widening the number of Bach Cantatas I have, mainly Gardiner, but only when I can find them at very good prices. I have about 100 of them now, though many are duplicated, some multiples.

[Elgarian]

I imagine you part rags with me over my recent pattern of buying. I have been deliberately widening the number of Bach Cantatas I have, mainly Gardiner, but only when I can find them at very good prices. I have about 100 of them now, though many are duplicated, some multiples.

Heck Mike, I lost three fillings just reading this....

[71 dB]

The thing about classical music is quantity. I have been buying and exploring classical music over 10 years now and I don't really know Handel yet. I have:

Acis and Galatea (Naxos)
Athalia (Naxos)
Belshazzar (Pinnock/Archiv)
Deborah (Naxos)
Giulio Cesare (excepts) (Jacobs/HM)
Giulio Cesare (Christie/Opus Arte DVD)
Hercules (Minkowski/Archiv)
Il Trionfo del Tempo e della Verità (Naxos)
Saul (Naxos)
Semele (Christie/Decca DVD)
Susanna (McGegan/HM) <= that one cost me 63 euros! 
The Messiah (Naxos)
The Messiah (Solti/Decca)

Hearing the aria "Where'er You Walk" few days ago for the first time in my life on Semele DVD made me understand how much there is brilliant Handel I don't have a clue about. People are well-protected against good music. I was able to live almost 40 years on this planet without hearing that brilliant aria anywhere! I am really into Handel opera DVDs now. Other music will be given less attention.

Teseo (Arthous DVD) is ordered and on it's way... 

[Elgarian]

I have been buying and exploring classical music over 10 years now and I don't really know Handel yet.

It's taken me closer to 40 years to find Handel ....

Speaking of which, I've been watching this:



I love this opera (I have the marvellous McGegan set on CD), but this is so, so disappointing. The sets are dark and dull. The performances generally lacklustre. Apart from one or two characters (eg Dalinda) the acting is simply dreadful; I mean seriously awful - like a bad school play. I'm watching it in 20-minutes stretches because after 20 minutes I start to feel miserable. I may even give up on it, because it's possibly damaging the images I've constructed in my imagination listening to the CDs.

This exemplifies why I'm not an 'opera on DVD' enthusiast. When they're bad, they're very, very bad. And this is bad.

[71 dB]

This exemplifies why I'm not an 'opera on DVD' enthusiast. When they're bad, they're very, very bad. And this is bad.

Maybe but I'm not even interested about the libretto without seeing it in action. That's why I get 20 times more watching operas on DVD compared to listening to them on CD. Lacklustre acting is better then no acting at all. I have realised that I enjoy singing more when I actually see the singer. I am an audiovisual person. That DVD is btw in my wishlist. 

Whether you like the sets or not is a matter of taste. I have seen the same opera DVD getting both 1 and 5 stars ratings.

[knight66]

Heck Mike, I lost three fillings just reading this....

I can give you the name of a good dentist.

Mike

[Coopmv]

The thing about classical music is quantity. I have been buying and exploring classical music over 10 years now and I don't really know Handel yet. I have:

Acis and Galatea (Naxos)
Athalia (Naxos)
Belshazzar (Pinnock/Archiv)
Deborah (Naxos)
Giulio Cesare (excepts) (Jacobs/HM)
Giulio Cesare (Christie/Opus Arte DVD)
Hercules (Minkowski/Archiv)
Il Trionfo del Tempo e della Verità (Naxos)
Saul (Naxos)
Semele (Christie/Decca DVD)
Susanna (McGegan/HM) <= that one cost me 63 euros! 
The Messiah (Naxos)
The Messiah (Solti/Decca)

Hearing the aria "Where'er You Walk" few days ago for the first time in my life on Semele DVD made me understand how much there is brilliant Handel I don't have a clue about. People are well-protected against good music. I was able to live almost 40 years on this planet without hearing that brilliant aria anywhere! I am really into Handel opera DVDs now. Other music will be given less attention.

Teseo (Arthous DVD) is ordered and on it's way... 

I never knew Naxos has a decent selection of Handel oratorios/operas.  But I generally do not like its rosters of artists that much ...

[DarkAngel]

Edit: Now ordered, second hand, so very low price. I imagine you part rags with me over my recent pattern of buying. I have been deliberately widening the number of Bach Cantatas I have, mainly Gardiner, but only when I can find them at very good prices. I have about 100 of them now, though many are duplicated, some multiples.

I have never been that impressed with Bach cantatas, I have tried many times over 20+ years to get into them but they just seem a bit bland after extended listening.......the good news is that allows me more money/time to spend on Handel/Vivaldi vocal works which seem endlessly exciting by comparison. I wonder how many people have 60 CD Bach cantata sets that have never listened to all cds  

The missing booklet for used opera sets is an all too common occurance with Amazon sellers, because I have been buying massive amounts of opera sets I started a thread here recently to complain about it  

[knight66]

Well to each their own.

Mike

[Coopmv]

I have never been that impressed with Bach cantatas, I have tried many times over 20+ years to get into them but they just seem a bit bland after extended listening.......the good news is that allows me more money/time to spend on Handel/Vivaldi vocal works which seem endlessly exciting by comparison. I wonder how many people have 60 CD Bach cantata sets that have never listened to all cds  

The missing booklet for used opera sets is an all too common occurance with Amazon sellers, because I have been buying massive amounts of opera sets I started a thread here recently to complain about it  

But St Matthew Passion is in a league by itself.  I have 12 versions of that work between LP's and CD's ...

[Elgarian]

I am an audiovisual person.

Yes, I'm very sensitive to the visual myself. The difficulty arises when what you actually see is significantly less interesting than what is imagined. There was a discussion about this somewhere else recently, where someone (it might have been DavidRoss) was explaining that the opera one imagines when listening is itself an imagined visual experience; and that these problems are less acute at a real live operformance because there are all sorts of other factors - the buzz in the air, the sense of presence, and so on.

As you say, this is a very personal decision. But even so, in terms of acting, costumes, choreographed movements on stage, and quality of sung performance, I think there's an enormous gulf between this Ariodante production and, say, the famous Giuilio Cesare Glyndebourne DVD.

[71 dB]

Yesterday I watched Ingmar Bergman's Trollflöjten on TV. It was the first time I saw any kind of performance of a Mozart opera. It was funny to hear Mozart sung in Swedish. 

The difficulty arises when what you actually see is significantly less interesting than what is imagined.

That's why I imagine things that nobody will ever do (e.g. hyperhorror). Why imagine operas when people actually produce them?

[DarkAngel]

So the boxset will only cost me an extra $36 total, life is good.........

My boxset arrived today from UK, beautiful heavy box with hinged top opens to reveal 15 CDs in cardboard sleeve, each opera has different photo of bare tree on sleeve and list of singers. There is a booklet but only has enhanced track listing for all Cds, does not have plot synopsis or libretto.

There is an info CD that displays nice graphic interface menu for viewing each operas full info in PDF format, if you listen to music through computer you have it made in the shade. Otherwise a cumbersome way to access info, I refuse to print out info on full pages and somehow try to keep that with CD boxset and not look messy. Perhaps if you have a laptop you can view info while in your listening chair and make do quite well.

Still for the price this will turn out to be one of my better music investments.......

Elgarian do you have any misgivings with your purchase?

[Elgarian]

Elgarian do you have any misgivings with your purchase?

No, not at all. It's a lovely thing in its own right, and I can share your pleasure in it gladly. Sure, the libretto business is a pain, but I'm not going to let that bother me.

On the other hand, DA - I still haven't listened to any of them yet. One reason is this:



These Italian cantatas are so delightfully more-ish that I tend to find myself choosing to listen to them more often than anything else. On this CD, for example - the second in the Glossa series - there's a delectable thing called Notte placida e cheta which I think I could happily listen to on a daily basis. There's nothing very profound about it - just some young chap enchanted by a gentle breeze and dreaming about his love - but the first aria (there are four) is simply exquisite, perfectly matching the subject matter; and throughout, the singing of Emanuella Galli seems perfectly tuned to the mood of the piece. It all seems faultless to me, and one of those things that makes you glad to be alive and able to listen to it.

[DarkAngel]

Elgarian
I have not forgotten about those Glossa label Italian Cantatas.......
but my stack of new opera & oratorio CD sets is large and demands my attention (for now)

Seems Presto UK has best price for USA buyers like me........

[Elgarian]

but my stack of new opera & oratorio CD sets is large and demands my attention (for now)

I understand. It's one heck of a job, but someone's got to do it.

[Elgarian]

Meanwhile ... I am still plodding my way through this horrible production:



Watching and listening to this, close to terminal boredom, even though limiting myself to 20-minute stretches, I have great difficulty in believing that Ariodante is one of my favourite Handel operas. I'm now halfway through, determined to reach the end, having paid serious money for it. It's become a matter of personal pride, like climbing a mountain or reaching the south pole. But oh, golly. The costumes are so unappealling - so ill-fitting. Ariodante looks ridiculous in a uniform that seems to have been designed to fit someone else. The acting is so wooden that I can't summon any sympathy for anyone, except Dalinda who actually sings beautifully and behaves like a human being. I haven't seen the other version by English National Opera, but surely it can't be worse than this.