Getting at Handel's operas and oratorios

Started by Tancata, July 10, 2007, 01:25:37 PM

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The new erato

#740
Quote from: Elgarian on July 15, 2010, 02:48:14 AM
Just put in an order for the new Curtis recording:



Seems good value (£16 for 3CDs at Amazon uk) and PrestoClassical have assembled some nice comments about it here:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/advsearch.php?composer=handel&work=berenice&performer=curtis&medium=all&label=&cat=

Has anyone heard it?
Yes I have, once (mentioned in the "listening-to" thread). Not enough to form an informed opinion, but my initial impression is that the playing and conducting are very powerful and dramatic, and that the relatively unkhown singers aquits themselves pretty well.

Elgarian

That's encouraging enough for me, erato. Thanks for this.

The new erato

Another small step for mankind on the way to a complete Handel.

False_Dmitry

Quote from: Elgarian on July 03, 2010, 12:49:45 PM
Harry's comment about her in 2007: "Maria Zadori was a absolute favourite soprano for me, in fact as good as Emma Kirkby is

Damning with faint praise indeed :(  I'm sure Zadori is rather better than that.   
____________________________________________________

"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere

Elgarian

Quote from: False_Dmitry on July 15, 2010, 01:21:26 PM
Damning with faint praise indeed :(  I'm sure Zadori is rather better than that.
Well, I think so myself, by some margin. But Coopmv is a particular fan of Emma Kirkby's singing, and the comment I quoted was chosen specifically for his benefit.

Coopmv

Quote from: Elgarian on July 15, 2010, 01:28:00 PM
Well, I think so myself, by some margin. But Coopmv is a particular fan of Emma Kirkby's singing, and the comment I quoted was chosen specifically for his benefit.

At the present moment, I still do not have a single recording by Maria Zadori.  I may go straight to the Hungaroton label since that particular reissue on BC may be no longer available ...   :(

False_Dmitry

Quote from: Elgarian on July 15, 2010, 01:28:00 PM
Well, I think so myself, by some margin. But Coopmv is a particular fan of Emma Kirkby's singing, and the comment I quoted was chosen specifically for his benefit.

I'm afraid I have never been convinced by Kirkby's performances in Italian opera - I find a more "gutsy" performance needed.  It's all been an over-reaction to the overblown "choral society massed choirs" performances of Handel from the middle of last century...  a mistaken idea that Handel is like a badly-restored painting, and that there is an "original" there to be had, if only we first remove centuries of soot, varnish, glue and the unwanted retouchings of others. 

I'm certain that the shareholders of the Royal Academy Of Musick (all of whom were young bucks who'd made the Grand Tour and spent extensive time in Italy) didn't shovel their money into importing outrageously-priced soloists from Italy (Durastanti, Cuzzoni, Bordoni etc) if local talent would have done the job.  It's noticeable that even where local soloists (Anastasia Robinson) were used initially, they were mainly filling-in until an Italian could be put on contract...  viz the recasting of RADAMISTO (in which Robinson was elbowed-out).  Whether we like it or not, it was the star casts which attracted the audiences to Handel's operas - when Senesino split with Handel and started his own company with Heiddeger, the audience voted with their feet and stomped off down the road to see and hear Senesino.  (Our legacy of partiality for Handel - howbeit so charmingly loyal - has blinded us to the exceptional operas of Porpora, Bononcini, Lotti etc - the claims made that the "Opera Of The Nobility" was a dumbed-down public of canary-fanciers are very wide of the mark...  the repertoire there was no less sophisticated).

I'm not opposed to Kirkby - only to her casting in Italian opera.  Her performances in Bach etc (an entirely different genre of protestant church music written for boy trebles) are very fine,  and I would not like to be ranked alongside her adversaries - I'm not ;)
____________________________________________________

"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere

The new erato

Quote from: False_Dmitry on July 15, 2010, 10:53:07 PM
(Our legacy of partiality for Handel - howbeit so charmingly loyal - has blinded us to the exceptional operas of Porpora, Bononcini, Lotti etc - the claims made that the "Opera Of The Nobility" was a dumbed-down public of canary-fanciers are very wide of the mark...  the repertoire there was no less sophisticated).

And boy how I wish more of that was recorded. As we are nearing (I guess) Handel saturation (I've got good to exceptional recordings of 75% of his operas now) I guess this is about to happen. As well as more of the Hamburg operas (Telemann, Keiser, Conradi, Hasse), and early Venetian stuff (why is Cesti so poorly represented?). And what about southern Germany/Austria (Caldara et al)?

Handel and the frenchies (and probably Vivaldi thanks to Naive) is the only areas where I'm reasonably satisfied.

Guess I'm hopeless.

Elgarian

#748
Quote from: False_Dmitry on July 15, 2010, 10:53:07 PM
I'm afraid I have never been convinced by Kirkby's performances in Italian opera - I find a more "gutsy" performance needed.
It's worth a reminder that our comments weren't made in the context of Italian opera, but of Handel's early cantatas - that is, quite intimate Arcadian works, usually with only one or sometimes two singers, and a relatively small number of instruments. One may or may not prefer this or that soprano singing them, but Kirkby's light, airy voice seems well suited to expressing the delights or laments of a shepherdess, or the like. I find her a little shrill, myself, but that's purely a matter of personal preference. I don't think there's anything about her singing that's fundamentally unsuited to the works that were under discussion here.

Of course one may argue that we shouldn't be discussing Handel's cantatas in a thread devoted to his operas, but we seem to have established a tradition in this thread of discussing them all, regardless: untidy collection of Handel enthusiasts as we are!

False_Dmitry

Quote from: Elgarian on July 16, 2010, 01:07:04 AM
It's worth a reminder that our comments weren't made in the context of Italian opera, but of Handel's early cantatas - that is, quite intimate Arcadian works, usually with only one or sometimes two singers, and a relatively small number of instruments.

A timely point, and well made :)  The solo cantatas, and more especially the more musically-rewarding cantate a due voci, are charming pieces, and we should be grateful to those who've spent time bringing them to disk :)  I wonder for whom Handel intended them?  Clearly they were a welcome source of publishing income for him (they ran through several editions) and their modest resources (continuo only) suggest domestic performance - did they have "professional" performances too, I wonder?  I must scrub-up my rusty Italian and revisit these pieces soon - a pleasant way to pass a summer evening! :)   (BTW, the scores of all of them - along with the rest of GFH's output - can be downloaded free (and legally) from the Bayerische Handel-Gesellschaft, if anyone would like to play them at home...  as the composer intended? :) )

Quote from: erato on July 16, 2010, 12:04:17 AM
And boy how I wish more of that was recorded. As we are nearing (I guess) Handel saturation (I've got good to exceptional recordings of 75% of his operas now) I guess this is about to happen. As well as more of the Hamburg operas (Telemann, Keiser, Conradi, Hasse), and early Venetian stuff (why is Cesti so poorly represented?). And what about southern Germany/Austria (Caldara et al)?

Yes, yes, and yes :)  I confess to be an irredeemable Telemann fan - but his operas suffer from very poor libretti. Only ORPHEUS is really up-to-standard.  I mean here not the poetry and fine versification (although that's not much better), but bad plotting, dull stories, and missed dramatic opportunities.  Of course the interest is always primarily the music - but when opera-houses are planning how to spend scant resources, an opera with a weak story, set in remote classical antiquity, and lacking piquant scenes of love, conflict, power-struggle, war, tyranny, treachery etc will always come-off second-best.  But more than that - composers rarely write their best stuff for dull stories ;)

I'm sure we are due for a Porpora revival sometime soon!  He had a shrewd sense of the dramatic, and - like Handel - sought-out juicy libretti that would give full reign to his powers.  He was also a singing-teacher - his pupils included not only the legendary Farinelli, but also Handel's late-period leading man, Caffarelli, who was alleged to have been the finest of them all.  And he wrote "for the best", knowing what would sit well in their voices and produce the most striking effects in the theatre.   The list of his librettists reads like a roll-call of the finest in the business - Metastasio, Stampiglia, and Zeno dominate the list... although his period in London compelled him (by contract) to write to the verses of the dull versifier Rolli.  His PORO (to a Metastasio libretto) is an outstanding work, and badly needs a worthwhile full recording.   But he was ahead of his time in also writing comedies (by which I mean works overtly labelled "commedia per musica" or "opera buffa", rather than works like Handel's SERSE which merely happen to be amusing in places) - THE BARON OF ZAMPANO and THE TRIUMPH OF VALOUR would be worth reviving :)   ORLANDO has actually been recorded, but I haven't heard it.

I wonder what this legendary vocal teacher would think of our discussion of sopranos above?  And I wonder who he would cast himself, if allowed to make a greatly-delayed return to the harpsichord to supervise a recording of PORO?   Natalie Dessay?  DiDonato?  Fleming? De Niese?   And more pertinently, how to cast the castrato roles?  My own declared preference is for coloratura mezzos (because they have the power and "blade" that counter-tenors can't easily achieve) - but yes, they often "look wrong", and don't always have the masculine ring to their voices.  But I've worked with countertenors (Oleg Ryabets - a male sopranist like Caffarelli, he doesn't do the alto roles) too, and they can be excellent.
____________________________________________________

"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere

Elgarian

#750
Quote from: False_Dmitry on July 16, 2010, 03:24:11 AM
I wonder for whom Handel intended them?
They were commissioned by various patrons (Ruspoli, Ottoboni, Pamphilli, etc.) during the very few years Handel was in Italy. I remember reading somewhere (probably one of the booklets accompanying the superb Glossa series of recordings) that during one period Handel was required to produce a new cantata every week, for private performance for his patron, on Sundays.

False_Dmitry

Quote from: Elgarian on July 16, 2010, 03:53:20 AM
I remember reading somewhere (probably one of the booklets accompanying the superb Glossa series of recordings) that during one period Handel was required to produce a new cantata every week, for private performance for his patron, on Sundays.

Yes, that's confirmed in the Hogwood biography of Handel, too. :) I wonder who the performers were, though, and what the performance conditions were?  For salon performance?  Perhaps by Ruspoli himself, or members of his family and their circle?  Or by soloists invited from the opera-house to entertain at private soirees?  Were these vignettes staged/costumed, or semi-staged, or sung purely as concert items, I wonder?  These are the things that keep me awake at nights ;)  I must get out more! :)
____________________________________________________

"Of all the NOISES known to Man, OPERA is the most expensive" - Moliere

Elgarian

#752
Quote from: False_Dmitry on July 16, 2010, 04:15:26 AM
I wonder who the performers were, though, and what the performance conditions were?  For salon performance?  Perhaps by Ruspoli himself, or members of his family and their circle?  Or by soloists invited from the opera-house to entertain at private soirees?  Were these vignettes staged/costumed, or semi-staged, or sung purely as concert items, I wonder?  These are the things that keep me awake at nights ;)  I must get out more! :)
   

I think the answers to many of these questions are matters of conjecture rather than known facts, but the excellent booklets that accompany the Bonizzoni/La Risonanza series of recordings on Glossa do tackle some of these issues, even though the answers are often uncertain. For example, Cardinal Pamphili (one of Handel's patrons) was the author of a number of cantata texts, including Handel's Il Delirio Amoroso. In this cantata (written at a time when women were banned from singing on the public stage in Rome), the notes suggest that the part of Clori was written for 'a male castrato, probably for Pasqualino ... or Cecchino'.  However, another important Handel patron, the Marquis of Ruspoli, employed soprano Marguerita Durastante on a regular salary for a time (with a house, and a carriage!), and it seems that Handel wrote some cantatas specially for her. These Glossa booklets are a mine of such information.

The new erato

Quote from: Elgarian on July 16, 2010, 06:07:55 AM
   [img]These Glossa booklets are a mine of such information.
And such a pity that there are no more to came after vol 7.

Elgarian

Why did this thread dry up, I wonder? Well, I propose to resurrect it because of some excellent news.

Handel's Italian cantatas (as will be clear from earlier posts in this thread) are among my very favourite listening - so much so that virtually any new release that I hear about will find its way pretty quickly onto my shelves. A year or two ago an exciting new prospect opened up with the release, on Brilliant Classics, of what was being touted as another 'complete' series. Volumes 1 and 2 appeared - delightful recordings, as below:

 

And then..... nothing. I assumed the project had fizzled out. But no - there is now a volume 3, and it arrived on my doormat today:



I listened to it while I had my lunch, and as always with these cantatas, it charmed the heck out of me. I haven't done a direct comparison with the Glossa version, which sets the bar at a very high standard; neither have I compared it with the one on Hyperion (Helios) label, which also is one of my favourites; my impression is that this is maybe not quite up there in the 'simply fabulous' bracket (as they both are). But it still sounds pretty damn good to my ears, and it provides still another excuse for listening to a Handel cantata (if you needed one), and it's so cheap that you'd be mad not to get one and try it for yourself and give it the chance to make your day feel better. You know it make sense.

Coopmv

Quote from: Elgarian on September 01, 2011, 12:06:23 PM
Why did this thread dry up, I wonder? Well, I propose to resurrect it because of some excellent news.

Handel's Italian cantatas (as will be clear from earlier posts in this thread) are among my very favourite listening - so much so that virtually any new release that I hear about will find its way pretty quickly onto my shelves. A year or two ago an exciting new prospect opened up with the release, on Brilliant Classics, of what was being touted as another 'complete' series. Volumes 1 and 2 appeared - delightful recordings, as below:

 

And then..... nothing. I assumed the project had fizzled out. But no - there is now a volume 3, and it arrived on my doormat today:



I listened to it while I had my lunch, and as always with these cantatas, it charmed the heck out of me. I haven't done a direct comparison with the Glossa version, which sets the bar at a very high standard; neither have I compared it with the one on Hyperion (Helios) label, which also is one of my favourites; my impression is that this is maybe not quite up there in the 'simply fabulous' bracket (as they both are). But it still sounds pretty damn good to my ears, and it provides still another excuse for listening to a Handel cantata (if you needed one), and it's so cheap that you'd be mad not to get one and try it for yourself and give it the chance to make your day feel better. You know it make sense.

Interesting sets!  Are they any good in your opinion?

Elgarian

#756
Quote from: Coopmv on September 01, 2011, 04:11:47 PM
Interesting sets!  Are they any good in your opinion?

I don't think I have anything to add to what I said in my earlier post at the moment. Vol 3 perhaps lacked a bit of sparkle (but that could easily have been my mood - I was quite tired when I listened to it). I haven't recently refeshed my memory of vols 1 and 2, but I've certainly enjoyed them on the two or three times I listened to them, and the point is that they give me another very pleasant way of listening to Handel cantatas without the risk of the same performance going stale. Not, I hasten to add, that the two wonderful Maria Zadori collections have ever come close to growing stale.


Hattoff

I am listening to volume 3 right now, it seems fine to me, what lovely music. But a reviewer on Amazon says that he was "underwhelmed". How much whelming does one need? :)

Elgarian

#758
Quote from: Hattoff on September 02, 2011, 12:28:59 AM
I am listening to volume 3 right now, it seems fine to me, what lovely music. But a reviewer on Amazon says that he was "underwhelmed". How much whelming does one need? :)

I think if one listens to it in isolation, on its own terms, it's a thoroughly delightful record. But there are at least two other very fine variant recordings of Aminta e Fillide out there, and by comparison with those, perhaps this is a bit short on whelmability. That's the problem with comparisons of course - they generate a feeling of competition which isn't always helpful. I'm delighted to have this and very much hope they complete the series.

chasmaniac

Perhaps because of the Xmas-Messiah connection, I don't know, but as the weather gets colder I find myself pining for an extra large dose of Handel's vocal medicine. Happily, I've got alot of it on the shelf, including most of the oratorios. Listened to the Christie/Daneman Theodora yesterday. What next? What next?
If I have exhausted the justifications, I have reached bedrock and my spade is turned. Then I am inclined to say: "This is simply what I do."  --Wittgenstein, PI §217