Getting at Handel's operas and oratorios

Started by Tancata, July 10, 2007, 01:25:37 PM

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Elgarian

#760
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 14, 2011, 05:05:46 AM
Listened to the Christie/Daneman Theodora yesterday. What next? What next?

Christie/Daneman make an incomparable pairing and a hard act to follow! But if you're looking for suggestions, how about a recently-discovered Handel opera that has been wowing the people at BBC Music Magazine, who gave this recording five stars for both performance and recording?



I bought it on sight when I came across it (it won't cost you much). Haven't listened to it yet, but if the attribution to Handel is sound, it comes from that very interesting early Italian period associated with the cantatas.

Alternatively, if you, like me, have been waiting for a really decent Alcina DVD, you might be drawn to this:



It's very beautiful, visually; has an eighteenth-century setting (thank goodness); and while it's not perfect, it's so far ahead of the absurd competition that I'm delighted to have it. Kasarova makes an idiosyncratic Ruggiero which you may either love or hate (personally, I love her idiosyncrasies).

The new erato

According to newolde.com:

"Not by Handel. Germanico. (See the comments on the Handel List -  the lastest hypothesis is that the opera was composed in Vienna between 1702 and 1704, probably by Bononcini or Ariosti.) dhm 0886978604521 (2 CDs, July 2011). Ottavio Tenerani, Il Rossignolo. Maria Grazia Schiavo, soprano; Sara Mingardo, contralto; Franco Faglioli, countertenor; Sergio Foresti, bass. An early 18th Century serenata that would not have been revived without the false attribution to Handel. Possibly a pasticcio -- Track 23 is an aria from Bononcini's Camilla (1696). A mediocre work overall, but outstanding singing on this recording"

Elgarian

Quote from: The new erato on November 14, 2011, 01:06:08 PM
According to newolde.com:

"Not by Handel. Germanico. (See the comments on the Handel List -  the lastest hypothesis is that the opera was composed in Vienna between 1702 and 1704, probably by Bononcini or Ariosti.) dhm 0886978604521 (2 CDs, July 2011). Ottavio Tenerani, Il Rossignolo. Maria Grazia Schiavo, soprano; Sara Mingardo, contralto; Franco Faglioli, countertenor; Sergio Foresti, bass. An early 18th Century serenata that would not have been revived without the false attribution to Handel. Possibly a pasticcio -- Track 23 is an aria from Bononcini's Camilla (1696). A mediocre work overall, but outstanding singing on this recording"

Thanks for the straightener, Erato. It's a shame - it made for a good story!

chasmaniac

Quote from: Elgarian on November 14, 2011, 12:42:51 PM
Christie/Daneman make an incomparable pairing and a hard act to follow!

[asin]B000GYHZ7G[/asin]

I opted for the first half of Gardiner: Alexander's Feast this morning. Did you know that drinking is the soldier's pleasure? Who'd a thought?
If I have exhausted the justifications, I have reached bedrock and my spade is turned. Then I am inclined to say: "This is simply what I do."  --Wittgenstein, PI §217

Elgarian

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 02:22:26 AMDid you know that drinking is the soldier's pleasure? Who'd a thought?

I think we need evidence.

Coopmv

Quote from: The new erato on November 14, 2011, 01:06:08 PM
According to newolde.com:

"Not by Handel. Germanico. (See the comments on the Handel List -  the lastest hypothesis is that the opera was composed in Vienna between 1702 and 1704, probably by Bononcini or Ariosti.) dhm 0886978604521 (2 CDs, July 2011). Ottavio Tenerani, Il Rossignolo. Maria Grazia Schiavo, soprano; Sara Mingardo, contralto; Franco Faglioli, countertenor; Sergio Foresti, bass. An early 18th Century serenata that would not have been revived without the false attribution to Handel. Possibly a pasticcio -- Track 23 is an aria from Bononcini's Camilla (1696). A mediocre work overall, but outstanding singing on this recording"

I spotted this set on the web a while back but seriously doubted the work was by Handel.  As such, I have no intention to add this to my Handel collection.  Indeed, Handel composed better Italian baroque operas than any Italian baroque composers ...

The new erato

#766
Quote from: Coopmv on November 16, 2011, 06:54:23 PM
Indeed, Handel composed better Italian baroque operas than any Italian baroque composers ...
He probably did but there are few of them so one should include the Italian Cantatas and Oratories as well (eg I find no English Oratorio by Handel that I like as much as La Resurrezione). But that doesn' mean that there aren't brilliant and worthwhile operas by contemporary Italians, Scarlatti, Stradella, Popora and Bononcini. On the whole I prefer the earlier generation of Italian baroque opera though, Cesti, Cavalli, Monteverdi etc.

Elgarian

#767
Quote from: The new erato on November 14, 2011, 01:06:08 PM
According to newolde.com:

"Not by Handel. Germanico. (See the comments on the Handel List -  the lastest hypothesis is that the opera was composed in Vienna between 1702 and 1704, probably by Bononcini or Ariosti.) dhm 0886978604521 (2 CDs, July 2011). Ottavio Tenerani, Il Rossignolo. Maria Grazia Schiavo, soprano; Sara Mingardo, contralto; Franco Faglioli, countertenor; Sergio Foresti, bass. An early 18th Century serenata that would not have been revived without the false attribution to Handel. Possibly a pasticcio -- Track 23 is an aria from Bononcini's Camilla (1696). A mediocre work overall, but outstanding singing on this recording"

I listened to the first half of this yesterday, and to be honest, I feel rather taken in. If someone had played this for me as an unknown piece of Baroque music, I'd never have thought this could be by Handel. In the booklet accompanying the CD set there are arguments about details of stylistic similarities, but it all comes to nought because basically the thing just doesn't sound like Handel.

Of course there's the argument that if this were Handel's very first 'opera' (serenata), it wouldn't sound like those we know. Perhaps so, but we would expect it to sound something like the wonderful cantatas, wouldn't we, which were written in the same few years? Even though on a bigger scale than them?

Truth is, I just plain don't like it much, and I'm not sure I want to bother with the second half when I could be listening instead to some real Handel. That's not to say it doesn't have some fine moments; but for my taste there's far too much of the high-speed stuttering pyrotechnics that seems to disfigure so much Italian baroque, where singing sounds more like machine gun fire than singing. Waste of money for me, really.

chasmaniac

This is Handel:

[asin]B000LE0TEM[/asin]

An expended cantata, really. With an optimistic subject and no particular narrative to push, the composer seems to have been content to make every little bit as delightful as possible. Bravo!
If I have exhausted the justifications, I have reached bedrock and my spade is turned. Then I am inclined to say: "This is simply what I do."  --Wittgenstein, PI §217

Elgarian

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 17, 2011, 02:21:25 AM
This is Handel:

[asin]B000LE0TEM[/asin]

An expended cantata, really. With an optimistic subject and no particular narrative to push, the composer seems to have been content to make every little bit as delightful as possible. Bravo!

Yes, exactly. Delightful from beginning to end (I have Emmanuelle Haim's version). Another great favourite of mine is this one:



But then, if we start to list our favourite Handel recordings,  methinks it's going to be a  v  e  r  y   l  o  n  g list....

chasmaniac

Quote from: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 03:45:14 AM
Another great favourite of mine is this one:



But then, if we start to list our favourite Handel recordings,  methinks it's going to be a  v  e  r  y   l  o  n  g list....

There, held in holy passion
As steals the morn
Let me wander not unseen


OK, now you've done it! Particular favourites of mine (in no order):
Theodora
Samson
L'Allegro
Il Trionfo
Acis and Galatea
Solomon
Saul
La Resurrezione
Israel in Egypt
Messiah


What have I missed?  :D
If I have exhausted the justifications, I have reached bedrock and my spade is turned. Then I am inclined to say: "This is simply what I do."  --Wittgenstein, PI §217

The new erato

Seems you have the oratorios well covered (I would include Jephta though, and have never heard Susannah).

But of course you miss out on the operas and cantatas.

chasmaniac

Quote from: The new erato on November 17, 2011, 04:25:59 AM
But of course you miss out on the operas and cantatas.

Yup, I'm weak on those. Know the oratorios far better. Here are some that might make my toppers list with more and more careful listens:
Belshazzar
Jephtha
Athalia
Esther


And here are the ones I've never heard:
Susanna
Hercules
Brockes Passion
Parnasso in Festa
If I have exhausted the justifications, I have reached bedrock and my spade is turned. Then I am inclined to say: "This is simply what I do."  --Wittgenstein, PI §217

The new erato

Hercules is good. And Parnasso is an extremely fine work.

Elgarian

#774
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 17, 2011, 04:01:41 AM
There, held in holy passion
As steals the morn
Let me wander not unseen


OK, now you've done it! Particular favourites of mine (in no order):
Theodora (Yes!)
Samson
L'Allegro (Yes! Yes!)
Il Trionfo (Oh yes!)
Acis and Galatea (Oh yes! Oh yes! Oh yeess!)

Solomon
Saul
La Resurrezione
Israel in Egypt
Messiah


What have I missed?  :D

I've highlighted in red my favourites from your list. For some reason (of no particular consequence) the Oratorios have appealed to me less than the operas. My pet operas would be:

Ariodante (Oh! Ohh! Oooh!)
Alcina (Ooooh!)
Giulio Cesare (Ooh!)

But then there are the wonderful, delicious cantatas - on the whole, and taken as a group, my very favourite Handel listening. Just tuck me into a corner with the 7 Glossa discs and I'll be fine, thanks.

chasmaniac

Quote from: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 01:18:14 PM
I've highlighted in red my favourites from your list. For some reason (of no particular consequence) the Oratorios have appealed to me less than the operas. My pet operas would be:

Ariodante (Oh! Ohh! Oooh!)
Alcina (Ooooh!)
Giulio Cesare (Ooh!)

But then there are the wonderful, delicious cantatas - on the whole, and taken as a group, my very favourite Handel listening. Just tuck me into a corner with the 7 Glossa discs and I'll be fine, thanks.

I lean the other way, obviously, but then I have only 6 operas on the shelf. Re. Giulio Cesare, though, I feel I am qualified to second your ooh! and maybe raise it with an oohoo! My introduction to Handel's vocal music was the ravishing V'adoro, pupille from this set:

[asin]B000TT1QL4[/asin]

On the cantatas I am similarly untutored, having heard a mere 3 discs worth, none of them the famous Glossas. But time and the miracle of compound interest will fix that.

8)
If I have exhausted the justifications, I have reached bedrock and my spade is turned. Then I am inclined to say: "This is simply what I do."  --Wittgenstein, PI §217

Elgarian

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 17, 2011, 01:30:15 PMBut time and the miracle of compound interest will fix that.

Neither time, nor compound interest, nor even Glossa are needed to come close to cantata nirvana, as it happens. There exists a (now deleted) 2 CD set of cantatas that were issued by Brilliant, with Maria Zadori as the soloist (originally released on Hungaroton at full price.) If you click on this link ... :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Capella-Savaria-Concerto-Armonico-Nicholas/dp/B00009W3RL/ref=sr_1_52?ie=UTF8&qid=1321569517&sr=1-52

... you will find a second-hand set available for less than £2. I fell in love with Maria Zadori at first listen. Even paying postage to Canada, buying it will be the best good turn you've done yourself all week. I promise. (You can find one on Amazon.ca, but it'll cost you an arm and a leg.)


chasmaniac

Quote from: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 01:49:53 PM
Neither time, nor compound interest, nor even Glossa are needed to come close to cantata nirvana, as it happens. There exists a (now deleted) 2 CD set of cantatas that were issued by Brilliant, with Maria Zadori as the soloist (originally released on Hungaroton at full price.) If you click on this link ... :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Capella-Savaria-Concerto-Armonico-Nicholas/dp/B00009W3RL/ref=sr_1_52?ie=UTF8&qid=1321569517&sr=1-52

... you will find a second-hand set available for less than £2. I fell in love with Maria Zadori at first listen. Even paying postage to Canada, buying it will be the best good turn you've done yourself all week. I promise. (You can find one on Amazon.ca, but it'll cost you an arm and a leg.)



£4.61 shipped. That ain't 8 bucks in petroCanada money! Bought. Woohoo!
If I have exhausted the justifications, I have reached bedrock and my spade is turned. Then I am inclined to say: "This is simply what I do."  --Wittgenstein, PI §217

Elgarian

#778
Quote from: chasmaniac on November 17, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
£4.61 shipped. That ain't 8 bucks in petroCanada money! Bought. Woohoo!

There may now follow several consequences:

1. The Gods will record in their Great Book that their suspicion that you're a sensible fellow is confirmed.
2. Your future Handelian happiness will be secured, at least partially.
3. You may fall in love with Maria Zadori. Try listening on headphones for added intimacy, perhaps starting with 'Notte placida' at the start of the second CD. There are some of those cantatas where she sings so meltingly that I just know she did it for me personally. She may have sung some bits just for you too. (If you don't believe me, seek out Harry on this forum and ask him what he thinks of her.)

The new erato

Quote from: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 01:18:14 PM
I've highlighted in red my favourites from your list. For some reason (of no particular consequence) the Oratorios have appealed to me less than the operas. My pet operas would be:

Ariodante (Oh! Ohh! Oooh!)
Alcina (Ooooh!)
Giulio Cesare (Ooh!)

But then there are the wonderful, delicious cantatas - on the whole, and taken as a group, my very favourite Handel listening. Just tuck me into a corner with the 7 Glossa discs and I'll be fine, thanks.
We lean in the same direction. I prefer the operas in general to the oratorios, and I prefer the Italian influenced oratorios to the English ones though I concede the greatness of Theodora. Acis and Galatea, a favorite, can for many purposes be regarded as an opera (or at least a masque). The cantatas in general are superb. If we try to extrapolate from this; the conclusion is; the Italian Handel is generally superb. The English Handel is, with a few exceptions, merely very good.