Blind Comparison: Mahler Symphony no.1

[david johnson]

here you go, my preferences for group C

C8 - best for me
C6 - really good
C4 - great fun
C5 - similar to C4 but brighter tone quality
C2 - more clear to me than C1, more 'atmosphere'
C7 - i think i know who this is, but i do not own it
C1 - good balance
C3

[DavidRoss]

@ David: Glad to see that there's a slight resemblance in our ranking. At least we agree that B2 is the worst performance and B1 is a damn good one. It's my first blind comparison and I was in doubt about my capacity to discern anything... Really anxious to find out about who's conducting what piece...

No worries, Radu, the only thing we're trying to discern is what we like! And aside from the camaraderie and wit, what I like most about this forum is meeting like-minded souls with similar tastes whose recommendations and observations enrich my listening experience. One man's maudlin excess is another's impassioned sensitivity.

I, too, look forward to hearing more samples. Done right, the portentous opening of Mahler's 1st is one of my favorite moments in music.

[Beale]

I wonder if this is included in the set of 24?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww5pzaQHMzU

[Beale]

Here are my humble opinion on Group A. Quite nervous about this as I was never quite sure what criteria to use. In the end I favored music that I found interesting and engaging.

(ordered from most liked to most disliked)
A8: the most balanced and engaging of this set. The music builds up nicely and there is a sense of purpose and drive. A very coherent presentation with nice orchestration.

A5: Lots of interesting nuances here, more so than the others. Perhaps the conductor is trying to make this stand out from the crowd. Good beginning has the right awakening feel. Very brass heavy towards the end, but in a nice earth shattering way.

A1: A very enjoyable and leisurely reading. The balance is well judged.

A4: Another interesting one that builds up a sense of dread and mystery. The tension and drama is very deliberate, before exploding into the finale.

A6: I liked this one, but I found nothing really special about it to place it higher.

A7: I found the beginning to be too laid back and distanced. The ending was good, but I felt it lacked a sense of overall coherence.

A2: Found this to be lethargic and plodding. Lots of mystery but no sign of the wayfarer. Don't really like the horns in this one.

A3: The awakening feels just right, but it never go anywhere with it. It is like an eternal state of snooze until nearly the end.

I hope this result is agreeable.

[madaboutmahler]

Wow - great to have so many votes so early! Thank you all for your votes, very interesting. I very much enjoyed reading all of your comments too.

I know that Radu and David what like to do another group, would anyone else like to? Please let me know!

[mahler10th]

Here are my humble opinion on Group A. Quite nervous about this as I was never quite sure what criteria to use. In the end I favored music that I found interesting and engaging.

(HERE IN LISTENING ORDER)

A1: A very enjoyable and leisurely reading. The balance is well judged.
A2: Found this to be lethargic and plodding. Lots of mystery but no sign of the wayfarer. Don't really like the horns in this one.
A3: The awakening feels just right, but it never go anyway with it. It is like an eternal state of snooze until nearly the end.
A4: Another interesting one that builds up a sense of dread and mystery. The tension and drama is very deliberate, before exploding into the finale.
A5: Lots of interesting nuances here, more so than the others. Perhaps the conductor is trying to make this stand out from the crowd. Good beginning has the right awakening feel. Very brass heavy towards the end, but in a nice earth shattering way.
A6: I liked this one, but I found nothing really special about it to place it higher.
A7: I found the beginning to be too laid back and distanced. The ending was good, but I felt it lacked a sense of overall coherence.
A8: the most balanced and engaging of this set. The music builds up nicely and there is a sense of purpose and drive. A very coherent presentation with nice orchestration

I hope this result is agreeable.

Wow Beale, we are in different Orchestra Halls!   
Notes as listened:

A1 - Heavy handed opening should be lighter.  Lacks mystery.  Not as layered as expected.  Later, a wee bit hurried, not enough emphaiss on dalliance when required.  'Too' Robust.

A2 7:40 - Mystery!  Entry into a different dimension.  More cohesion in the musical progression - reswelling of strings after each wind interpolation!  Some brilliance of orchestral control.  This has got me already.  This is exactly how I want to hear it.  Brilliant use of the brass.

A3 16:00 - No.  It is opening in thick woods, and not ...it is playing but not inviting me. It is milk chocolate box playing.  Very nice, but it doesn't know its supposed to be dark chocolate.  In terms of interpretative effort, it gets 0.  It is okay I guess, but it is not 'telling me anything'.

A4 24:10 - Some very nice playing, nice altering emphasis in the strings. Nice depth between instruments.  This opening doesn't have the magic, but a musical narrative makes itself known to me which makes up for it.  I can go places with this.  Later:  Pure folk tale.  If I thought I could hear a narrative as it started, it sure is telling me stories now!  Oh boy, this is good!  This is music-making greatness!

A5 - 32:00 - A controlled sense of beauty, not wonder, from the start.  A bit slow on the uptake here and there.  It does not do enough in the opening section to justify the glory that comes after it.  Uneven.

A6 - 40:10 - For some reason, M1 here sounds more like a French symphony than a germanic one. It is not a 'big treatment' of M1, but exciteable none the less. Some nice touches, but I wouldn't touch too much.

A7 - 47:35 - I am left after the opening notes saying to myself:  "And?..."  Nice recording, but I can't hear much Mahler sound in it. It is not alive.  For all its eventual noise, I can't hear it breathe.

A8 - 55:37 - Very nice playing. Nicely seperated, good pacing - but too many things coming together instead of being together.
Second part, a brilliant pastoral beneath the surface.  Thumbs up.

Result:  A4, A2, A8, A1, A6. A7, A5, A3  Tough between A4 an A2.

EDIT:  Before listening to the B Group, I re-listened the A's again, and just HAD to turn my top two around.  A4 is my top choice, it really communicates with me.  It narrates so much, for all I know it is Inbals Mahler.  Thats how much I like it!   

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you for your vote, John, very interesting comments! Of course, if you would like to do another group too, please let me know!

[Beale]

Wow Beale, we are in different Orchestra Halls!   

Hello Scots John. Actually our rankings are pretty close as in the table below.

Beale   Scots John   Difference A1   3   4   1 A2   7   1   6 A3   8   8   0 A4   4   2   2 A5   2   7   5 A6   5   5   0 A7   6   6   0 A8   1   3   2

The main points of difference being A2 and A5. I concur with your notes and observations.

[trung224]

 Daniel, may you send me the clips for A and C group.

[DavidRoss]

Thanks for sending links for the other groups, Daniel. As I feared, the worst happened: most of the best ones were in the same group!

I listened to each group independently on sequential days, playing each set of samples straight through in one session, making notes along the way and pausing between selections to consider ranking among those previously heard in the same group. My choices follow, with notes in small font to make them easier to ignore for those who might be perusing this thread before making their own choices but who seek to minimize the potential for others to influence what they hear:

Group A top 5 (not ordered by preference): A1, A2, A5, A7, A8

Group C top 5 (not ordered by preference): C1, C2, C6, C7, C8

Notes for A:

#5 A1—Opening splendidly dragged out, SQ dated but not awful, horns awfully distant and slow, orchestral balances off and sound muddy/muddled, low strings aggressive rather than ominous, No swing or jauntiness --- FAIR
Closing—all a bit too languid, uneven, unfocused, swimming in quicksand instead of tight and implacable, emphases weak, sounds like an amateur orchestra doing its best but not quite hanging together, not quite getting it, either haphazard or frenetic—not bad but not good, either

#4 A2—Poor and dated SQ, timing & balance good for opening but truncated a bit, suffering from bad sound, lacking in nuance, horns just straight ahead, orchestra doesn't feel this music, basses nice, building well, SQ muddies the winds, nice swing into gentle lilting strolling music
Closing—better, building nicely, nice broad finale, more lilting than driven, decent performance let down by lousy SQ – FAIR+

#8 A3 – beginning not bad, lacking last bit of lingering nuance, SQ big improvement, distant trumpets in another county?!, lackluster cuckoo & horns—lulling INTO slumber, not beckoning wakefulness—cuckoo just awful, dull & squawky, balances bad, low strings barely discernible, no swing, sleepwalking not strolling
Closing—still bad balances, buried sound, lackluster not thrusting, trudging not surging, a very weak performance, tsk tsk.... Clueless! Ending tacked on, not emerging organically. Dumb!

#8 A4—too perfunctory to build and sustain mystery. Winds nice but lack nuance.  Offstage brass good if passionless.  Cuckoo much better than previous one but lacks sauciness.  The whole thing sounds disjointed, random sounds, rather than unified and related in an inexorable awakening. No swing
Closing—WTF? Sounds like Mantovani, not Mahler! Padded, muddy, Bloodless buildup to finale, do these guys even care a little about what they're p;laying? I've heard Merry Melodies cartoon scores with more conviction!

#3 A5—decent start, good winds, proper lingering, nicely judged off stage brass, strings could be "pluckier" but ok, cuckoo good, horns excellent, low strings not quite right but otherwise a very good opening, no swing, not jaunty, just so-so
Closing—okay, build-up a bit forced, trumpets too pushy, strolling theme lackluster & muddy, still a bit disjointed, at least I like this one more than I dislike it!

#8— A6—just a bit too fast and perfunctory instead of lingering & mysterious, pushing instead of emerging, cuckoo okay, horns sound drunk--tipsy, trumpets a bit too loud, commanding not distant beckoning, low strings too pushy, lack ominous foreboding, no swing, just playing notes
Closing—Wow, still just playing the notes. Da da da da da da daaa. Boring.  Lifeless. Dull. The orchestra sounds as if they're checking their watches to see how much longer they have to go through with this before they can go home. Just a touch of galloping to the barn at the finish. "Almost over? Good! Let's get 'er done!" 

#2 --A7—Balance just a bit off. Winds are nice even if a tad unenthusiastic.  Distant horn calls nicely judged. Cuckoo okay, horns okay, nice slowly building sense of awakening going on, low strings good, just a bit deliberate before almost swinging into a lilting stroll with nice sense of warmth –a success!
Closing—nicely judged tempo changes and dynamic shifts, at least this one is alive and growing, reaching, stretching toward something! Buildup to finale seems organic, not forced, nice lilting reprise before the big finish, just a bit rushed, perhaps, but finally a success!

#1 --A8—Wonderful opening, almost perfectly judged in every way, winds just a little dull, trumpets, horns, cuckoo, strings—all good! Low strings good but just short of the ideal brooding implacability, decent shift but no swing into stroll, not jaunty, either
Closing—buildup just a little weak, lacking ideal edginess, but good lift and drive into finale, nice whooping even if lacking raucous edge, finally a good (but not great) version!

Notes for C:

Note: For the most part these samples were all so good that I found it difficult to make fine judgments among them based only on one hearing of these short sections.  If all 24 (A, B, and C) were included in one group, my top five choices might all come from C.

#1--C1—Very nice opening, perfect timing, good balances, nicely bubbling winds, lovely building anticipation, trumpets & horns right on, good cuckoo & pluck, lovely nuanced horns, beautifully ominous undercurrent in strings, well-timed & balanced joining in, lovely swing into strolling rhythm – Damned near perfect!
Closing—nice sort of dreamy, wistful feeling, could be a bit more edginess in buildup, but it still works, implacable surging momentum, brass great at climax, raucous enough as needed, orchestra together in well-judged tempo shifts, strong finish—again damned near perfect! This is the first recording of the 17 heard so far that I think is a contender.

#1--C2—Wow—another one starting well, good timing, balance, sustain, winds bubbling but not over the top, all first rate so far, great sense of mystery and anticipation, off-stage brass distant but characterful, I love the slowly building tension, the cuckoo & horns are slow but engaged (like bubbling winds), timpani & basses just right, winds joining well, gentle swing into sleepy but awakening stroll—Very Nice!
Closing—Slight wistfulness again, surge a bit edgier than previous one but less forceful (?), climax strong, bit more triumphant and easily reconciled,  steady acceleration to oompah then after, strong finish—another top-notch effort!

#3--C3—Another good start, just short of the previous two, great bubbling winds, nice plaintive oboe, lovely anticipation, trumpets too distant, winds characterful but just a bit much, horns almost Straussian, offstage better, nicely ominous basses, not much swing, a bit stilted stroll
Closing—still a bit stilted instead of lilting, buildup seems a bit thin, detached, instead of engaged, no edge to surge, climax well done, still a bit shy of fully committed, raucous brass subdued (buried in mix), comes together nicely in race to finish, interesting hammer-edge to timpani sound.  Pretty good overall but a notch below C1 & 2.

#3--C4—opening good, just a wee bit brisk, love the subdued quality of the winds, distant horn calls a bit distant, cuckoo—hmmm, the balances in this one seem to emphasize the world's spaciousness, subtle shift to undercurrent in basses, character sustained in build to swing—disappointingly mild and underpowered, otherwise a nice alternative beginning
Closing—lovely lilting stroll, savoring delights of the countryside, shift to buildup just a bit underpowered, emotional content, edginess builds to climax right along with tempo & dynamic build—works, nice breaking into meadow after cresting an arduous climb—another nice one!

#2--C5—Another good opening out of the same mold, balances perfect, winds, trumpets, horns, even the damned clarinet all seem faultless, proper plucky accent, I'd like the basses to growl just a bit but that's a minor quibble as it builds seamlessly to a gentle swing into a lilting stroll—VERY NICE!
Closing—begins in splendid fashion, love everything about it, great balances, nice buildup, more surging than edgy, climax good again, lovely whoops, another very good performance—that makes 5 out of 5 for group C so far.

#1--C6—Another fine beginning, just a bit clipped instead of lingering ideally, but very close. Love the offstage balance, growing undercurrent, cuckoo, nostalgically longing horns, wonderfully plucky, oboe good throughout, very nice low growl to basses, build up well-managed, lovely tones from all, no swing, really, just a bit soporific –very good except for disappointment at the last
Closing—lovely, a bit dreamy, more emphasis on beautiful sounds and chamber balances, transparency in this recording, surge is good, lacks edginess but works, crest is a spilling over rather than a triumph, broad and beautiful, joining in a lovely finish. Another first-rate recording!

#1 ½-- C7—Okay, just a bit perfunctory, like the lingering bubblies but not thin oboe, offstage good, strings start pushing just a bit, horns okay, basses could be louder, winds a bit disjointed leading to nice but underpowered swing, jaunty but detached stroll (Daniel Day Lewis in The Age of Innocence). Good but short of the best.
Closing—nice swirling dance, lovely sounds, lovely lilting stroll now, still a bit jaunty, buildup shy of surge and edge, climax good, broadly triumphant, graceful beauty aftermath, nice march, all well integrated, great playing, love the orchestra.

#1 --C8—Cut from same cloth as before but better, I might like this one best of all, nuance of oboe, horns, offstage, pluck, cuckoo—basses good but just a bit underpowered (?)---ACK, sample cut short before swing into stroll!  How to compare handling of that critical transition? RATS! --Guess I'll have to wait till the identity is revealed (And if I don't have this one, I'll probably buy it!)
Closing—lovely gentle dancing stroll, just the right emphasis leading to build, nice surge, great trumpets, could use a bit of edginess, great moment of triumph, lovely whoops, love integration, acceleration at end, terrific orchestra, great finish.  Might be my favorite among a very good lot.

[mc ukrneal]

Group C: Mahler's Symphony No. 1

A tale of two worlds. After listening to the first four, I was starting to despair. I hadn' t liked a single one. Was it me? Was there something about the piece? And then I heard the next four and was blown away. There is a huge gap between 4th and 5th for me.

My rankings were (in order): C6, C5, C8, C7.............................................................................C2, C1, C3, C4.

My Rankings:
C1: Ok opening, but a bit static. Seems too deliberate. The sound is nice, but it plods along. And when the orchestra makes small, but important entrances (like the bunch around t 5:10), it feels tentative. But when the big explosion comes...finally! It's like they suddenly woke up. A tale of Jekyll and Hyde here.  Ranking:  6

C2: Decent start, though a bit shapeless. Trumpets are at a nice distance.  And when the buildup comes, pretty good. A bit more majestic than the first version, which seemed more thrilling. Deciding between them is difficult as they have the same problems and equally good advantages (just different).   Ranking:  5

C3: Another similar start, but the clarinet (and bass clarinets) entrance seemed more interesting than usual. Trumpets even more offstage here. This one seems to be aiming for a bit more variety (phrasing and volume) at the start, which I like. But then later, it slows down to molasses before the big explosion. Ugh. Then the rest of the clip seems a bit underwhelming.  So while I prefer the start here, C1 and C2 exceed it for me. Ranking: 7

C4: Start is dull. Clarinet entrance is dull. Trumpets were almost inaudible at first (strain to hear them). Horns seem a bit out of tune or unsteady in their tone at first. But then it starts to get rolling, and it is more interesting (though too slow). The buildup here is slow in coming and lacks punch to start. Trilling flutes irritated (audible over everything). Misses the target.   Ranking: 8

C5: Oh, now this start was a bit more interesting. Trumpets nicely offstage.  Horns so much better here than in C4. It is the only one so far that I have actually liked. For second portion – sounds like a hummer. I like the expressiveness here.  The buildup is great!  And then – wait for it – a darn good explosion of sound. Perhaps not perfect, but well done.  Ranking: 2

C6: Oh, and another nice opening. And the trumpets have a wonderful offstage entrance – very fine.  Love the bass sounds, which I never really noticed in the others so much. Soft transition works. Second portion has a softer buildup too. And the explosion surges (that's the best way I can describe it). You can hear the instruments at the end better too (more transparent).   Ranking: 1

C7: Ok start, but not quite as good as previous two. Nice clarinets, though trumpets, like in C4, are nearly inaudible at first. Horns seem to strain a bit. Some of the plucked entrances really surprise. Loses steam a bit, which might have been nice if the main theme had not come in the same way. Is there a balance issue in the buildup – brass sticks out too much (and I notice this later too). This one brings a certain lightness to it that almost gives it elegance. I liked it. Ranking: 4

C8: Yet another nice opening. Nice mellow sounded clarinet entrance. Trumpets seem too far away compared to a couple of the others. Buildup is nicely done, but why so suddenly slow?  The explosion that comes after seems strangely disconnected as a result. Some balance issues as well (trumpets and timpani stick out). On the other hand, I loved the control of the playing (and the precision).   Ranking: 3

[johndoe21ro]

Ha ha... Mind puzzling topic.

[zauberflöte]

It is milk chocolate box playing.  Very nice, but it doesn't know its supposed to be dark chocolate.

Gorgeous metaphor.
Stop trying to influence me!!! 

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you very much, David (very impressive you have done all 3 groups in such a short time!) and Neal, for your votes. Very interesting comments from both of you!

Neal, what are your thoughts on the music itself at the moment?

[mc ukrneal]

Thank you very much, David (very impressive you have done all 3 groups in such a short time!) and Neal, for your votes. Very interesting comments from both of you!

Neal, what are your thoughts on the music itself at the moment?

I enjoyed the last four entrants more than I expected, but I find it hard to say definitively with short clips. I need to hear the 'bigger picture'. We'll get there...

[madaboutmahler]

I enjoyed the last four entrants more than I expected, but I find it hard to say definitively with short clips. I need to hear the 'bigger picture'. We'll get there...

Glad to hear that, Neal! Of course, by the final round, hopefully we'll be comparing as much as the symphony possible!

[Brian]

Okay, at last I'm starting!

C1: Weird opening. The instrumental entrances have very different characters - woodwinds seem staid and plain, trumpets a little too rowdy. Before the last minute or so, this performance definitely seemed a bit staid and the rhythms repetitive. Weird that the conductor steps on the gas for the ending; shows what we'd been missing before. 4/10; C1 is my #8 choice

C2: The strings seem a bit unsteady in that tricky opening. Much cleaner trumpets than C1. The ending was okay but I felt very meh about this one. 5/10; C2 is my #7 choice

C3: Really great, vintage woodwinds have me 50% confident this is a Czech orchestra (Neumann/CzPO?). Gosh I love the clarinets. But at 22:00 in the file, the tempo momentarily gets very ponderous; the big outburst returns our conductor to decent form, only slightly square. After that my main complaint is the overbright trumpet. Gosh, this is such a Czech reading. 6/10; C3 is my #5 choice

C4: Subtle clarinets, very loud oboes, very distant trumpets. After the break, it feels very pastoral and open-fields-ish, though a bit stiff around 29:30. Pretty awesome "explosion," although at 30:57 I can feel all the energy briefly dissipate (it returns about 15 seconds later). Some seriously good playing in the final moments. Bizarrely long pause after the first timpani bit in the coda, though. 6/10; C4 is my #6 choice

C5: Older recording, great strings, such wonderful horns too. The conductor shows a far better understanding of how to pace the opening and unify the various elements than we saw in, say, C2. Even the drumroll seems worthy of praise. The cellos float on an angelic cloud right before the break; definitely the best opening so far. Oooh and after the break, though the recording's age shows so does its quality. This is totally outstanding. It's also, though this is kinda a random thought, how I always imagined Kubelik/DG might sound, so I really hope that's what it is. Only wish the timpani didn't sound kinda out of tune at the very end. 9/10; C5 is my #1 choice

C6: Perfectly calm entrance by the strings, but I find that the sound removes some of the mystery from the woodwind and horn solos. Is that a weird thing to think? After the break, a pastoral account with some pretty accomplished playing; all in all very well done, sounding utterly lovely. Probably the most gorgeous orchestral sound of the bunch. Don't look at me funny if I say I prefer the wacky character of C5, though. 9/10; C6 is my #2 choice

C7: Either I'm reaching burnout stage, or this is the third one in a row where I've really enjoyed the atmospheric opening and some very good playing. Really striking pizzicato from the violins, very mellow horn solo. Trumpet's a bit off after the intro ends, right before the break. After the break, it's going along fine before a bit of stiff phrasing at 53:36. It's just a bit heavy in the final pages, and so falls just short of 5 and 6. 7.5/10; C7 is my #4 choice

C8: Brash offstage trumpets seem to have a different conductor than the very nocturnal soloists from the rest of the orchestra (the horns are almost too subtle!). I wonder if they're meant to be hunting bugles? I also wonder if we've found Boulez! I think this clip is at a competitive disadvantage because clip 1 ends much sooner than it does on all the others: we don't get to hear the cellos and trumpets introduce the main theme. After the break: yeah okay this orchestral playing is obscenely good, so precise, but a little bit choppy rhythmically as the conductor braces himself very dramatically for the big outburst, like he's scared of it. The brass is crazy-good, the French horns sounding ridiculous. This is a jubilant final coda. Who knew guywhosoundslikeBoulez could exult? 8/10; C8 is my #3 choice

I think I'll try another group!

[madaboutmahler]

Great, thanks for your vote, Brian! Very interesting comments! Will send another group to you now.

[jlaurson]

INSERTION, just to have the thread pop up on my radar.

[TimH]

Found it a difficult exercise to rank the Group A performances as found little to choose between many of them. After listening to them all twice my top three are A5, A1 and A7, with A2 at the bottom of the pile. Difficult to choose the best two out of the remainder. Anyway, here it goes...

1st = A5: For me, this had the greatest stature; incisive and dramatic with tempos just right and a crystal clear recording.

2nd = A1: The most idiosyncratic and characterful of the set; at first thought a bit too "in your face", e.g. loud string harmonics and wind entries throughout opening, but overall a committed and exciting performance which grew on me; some fuzzy sound distortion.

3rd = A7: Restrained, elegant and smooth sounding; second excerpt starts laid back but builds in urgency.

4th = A6: In first excerpt, too much vibrato in horn duet - a bit ripe and offputting; 2nd excerpt - after a laboured build-up, sweeps along joyously by the end.

5th = A8: Pleasing overall, but several key string entries rather quiet and anonymous in first excerpt.

--------------

6th = A4: First excerpt - poised beginning, then too much 2nd horn in horn duet, cello entry woolly; second excerpt starts too slow but plenty of momentum by end.

7th = A3: Marred by excessively slow sections, e.g. start of second excerpt.

8th = A2: Orchestra lacks punch - sounds rather anaemic, maybe a recording issue?

Will not be at all surprised if my choices are out of kilter with the rest of the group!