Topic: Chopin Recordings

[PerfectWagnerite]

The picture is indeed of a Pleyel (good eye!) but the booklet doesn't specify what piano is used for the recording. Whatever it is it's definitely modern, though.

I found a short video of the aforementioned pianist playing a bit on a Pleyel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sBvZh_GI9A

Fascinating. The sound is a bit softer and less ringy than a modern grand but already you see where the modern piano was heading.

[George]

I found a short video of the aforementioned pianist playing a bit on a Pleyel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sBvZh_GI9A

Fascinating. The sound is a bit softer and less ringy than a modern grand but already you see where the modern piano was heading.

Fascinating indeed! Thanks for posting this.

Does anyone know what kind of piano Cortot played on/used for his recordings?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Fascinating indeed! Thanks for posting this.

Does anyone know what kind of piano Cortot played on/used for his recordings?

I remember reading that he prefered Pleyel but did not exclusively played on them.

Interesting about Chopin I find that he used the French version of his name, became a French citizen, spoke French, preferred French pianos, yet thought of himself as Polish...

[Mandryka]

Fascinating indeed! Thanks for posting this.

Does anyone know what kind of piano Cortot played on/used for his recordings?

Cortot preferred Pleyels to all other pianos, he owned a Pleyel and up to the mid 1930s used them for concerts, eventually changing to Steinways, I don't know why (marketing, money?) I don't know if there are any recordings using a Pleyel. Neither do I know whether his own Pleyel was an old one or an early 20th century model - there may not be much different, Pleyels may not have changed much, again I don't know.

I bet he liked them for their non-boomy bass and for their light touch, their colourful and slightly veiled sound. Chopin liked Pleyels too, they suit his music well I think.

[George]

Cortot preferred Pleyels to all other pianos, he owned a Pleyel and up to the mid 1930s used them for concerts, eventually changing to Steinways, I don't know why (marketing, money?) I don't know if there are any recordings using a Pleyel. Neither do I know whether his own Pleyel was an old one or an early 20th century model - there may not be much different, Pleyels may not have changed much, again I don't know.

I bet he liked them for their non-boomy bass and for their light touch, their colourful and slightly veiled sound. Chopin liked Pleyels too, they suit his music well I think.

Thanks, so it sounds like his recordings were probably not made using a Pleyel?

[Spineur]

....
I bet he liked them for their non-boomy bass and for their light touch, their colourful and slightly veiled sound. Chopin liked Pleyels too, they suit his music well I think.

We had a 1972 Pleyel at my parent's home.  Probably a very different piano compared to the pre-WWII pianos used by Cortot.  As you rightly said, it had a soft, slightly veiled, almost muffled sound.  Very suited to appartments, but not really to concert halls.  I would say that it goes in exactly the opposite direction than the Boesendorfers which have a very metallic sound.  The Steinways have the right balance between the two.

[PerfectWagnerite]

We had a 1972 Pleyel at my parent's home.  Probably a very different piano compared to the pre-WWII pianos used by Cortot.  As you rightly said, it had a soft, slightly veiled, almost muffled sound.  Very suited to appartments, but not really to concert halls.  I would say that it goes in exactly the opposite direction than the Boesendorfers which have a very metallic sound.  The Steinways have the right balance between the two.

I think you nailed it buddy. Chopin gave very limited number of public concerts the last couple of decades of his life and preferred a much smaller intimate setting where the smaller sounding Pleyel is probably more suitable. I say probably because no one put a modern Steinway and an 1848 Pleyel side by side and had him choose one.

THAT begs the question around 1850 were there pianos more like the modern grand than the 1848 Pleyel?

[Mandryka]

Thanks, so it sounds like his recordings were probably not made using a Pleyel?

If you look at the anniversary edition booklet you'll see that he used a Pleyel for the 1960s Beethoven sonatas. You'll also see that some of the recordings from the 1920s and 1930s were recorded in Salle Pleyel, where I guess he would have used a Pleyel piano.   

Charm has a recording of him doing some Chopin preludes which they say is using a Pleyel, you can download it here.

http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/sound/sound_cortot_downloads.html

He made quite a few recordings in the Kingsway Hall in the second half of the 1920s -- now we know they had a Pleyel and we know that it was his preferred make, it's not unlikely that he used it. Anyway it should be easy for a real pianophile to check -- I'll leave it to you.

[Jo498]

I remember reading that he prefered Pleyel but did not exclusively played on them.

Interesting about Chopin I find that he used the French version of his name, became a French citizen, spoke French, preferred French pianos, yet thought of himself as Polish...

Polish piano makers were probably not competetive in the 1830s and 40s. Overall, it is not that surprising. Think of many emigrants and expatriates in the 20th century or even today. There are certainly stranger things to be found among classical musicians, like Liszt thinking himself Hungarian when he hardly spoke the language (actually Liszt probably also spoke French better than German, it was the lingua franca of 19th century Europe and he also lived in Paris for many years).

[Holden]

Have you heard the 1980s (or early 1990s) live recording of op.25 by Sokolov (op.111/Naive)? This was probably the third or fourth disk with Chopin's music I heard as a relative newbie (I had listened to classical for almost 10 years then but only little solo piano and less Chopin) and the first with the etudes and they always seemed like music to me, never like studies. And op.25 has remained that way, even in less poetic interpretations. Admittedly, I never got into op.10 to the same extent. Although Cziffra and maybe Francois are certainly also far from playing them as "studies".

I'm listening to the Fialkowska on Spotify and while she certainly does bring out the musical element for me this only really seems to work in the slower Etudes. However, we all look for different things in these works and hear them differently. The most universally satisfying one for me in reasonably modern sound is the first cycle that Ashkenazy did in 1959 in Russia for Melodiya.

Speaking of Op 25 recordings there is one done by Grigori Ginzburg that I have that would stand alongside Sokolov and Cziffra IMO. They were rereleased a few years ago but I can't remember the label. They can be heard on Spotify.

[Mandryka]

This is an exciting an completely original recording of op 28.

Look, up to now pianists have discovered  two ways of seeing the preludes:

1. Sentimental and lyrical effusion (Moravec and a thousand others)
2. Abstract and classical style music with feeling emerging as a secondary effect (Pollini 1970s, Gilels) 

Well Wojciech Switala has found a third way and it's really exciting, viz:

3. Exploration of sounds, a bit like Gran Torso.

And boy, this guy can make some extraordinary sounds come out of his piano!

[Mandryka]

What do you think of this barcarolle by Ivan Mikhnovsky? I think the finesse of it, the suaveness, is astonishing.

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/waGKLjtSkf0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/waGKLjtSkf0</a>

[Mandryka]

A ground breaking recording of the 3rd sonata and other things here by Edoardo Torbianelli, who is the sort of scholar/performer which is common in early music, but rarer in 19th century  music. He has taken inspiration not only from the physical sound quality of Chopin's piano, but also by contemporary bel canto singing practice. The booklet essay by Jeanne Roudet is stimulating,

[Mandryka]

Hubert Rutkowski's Chopin is the closest I've heard to the Chopin of Mauriz Rosenthal. The instrument is characterful because the sounds it makes are so rich in partials. He says he has explored Chopin's comments about fingering, especially the effect of fingering on colour. Rutkowski's rubato is organic and his touch and phrasing is dramatic and song like. Well recorded.

[Mandryka]

What type of piano did Rosenthal play?

[snyprrr]

Coming fresh to Chopin! Pretty cool stuff...


I had the RCA Nocturnes back in the day,... but why was I not inclined to keep them> (money)??

So, I have the Livia Rev Nocturnes on the way


I'm interested in the MODERN recordings mostly... Pogo, Katsaris, Kocsis, Luisida, Zimerman, Gavrilov, Demidenko, Ashkenazy,... mostly looking for those SOUND+VISION things... I like to hear the recorded piano more than I seem to like music?!?!?

And I did like the Preludes from the 'Real' Chopin Box. (Pleyel?)

OF COURSE, I AM QUITE UNFAMILIAR WITH A WHOOOOOLE LOT OF MUSIC HERE- recommending actual Works might help- I can't even tell the Nocturnes apart, apart from the SuperFamous two.


HELP??!!!

[betterthanfine]

This is an exciting an completely original recording of op 28.

Look, up to now pianists have discovered  two ways of seeing the preludes:

1. Sentimental and lyrical effusion (Moravec and a thousand others)
2. Abstract and classical style music with feeling emerging as a secondary effect (Pollini 1970s, Gilels) 

Well Wojciech Switala has found a third way and it's really exciting, viz:

3. Exploration of sounds, a bit like Gran Torso.

And boy, this guy can make some extraordinary sounds come out of his piano!

Where would you rank, say, Argerich in this spectrum?

[snyprrr]

Sultanov?
Gavrilov?

[Draško]

Gavrilov?

Gavrilov had bit of reputation of shoot first, ask questions later type of pianist, fabulous technique whit not much thought, which I think is not wholly deserved. He was't the greatest colorist but there were some interesting ideas in his playing. Chopin wise he didn't record much: excellent set of Etudes, decent set ballades and 2nd Sonata which I honestly don't remember much. Ballades and Sonata he recorded twice, for EMI and DG I think.

Mid 90s he had some sort of breakdown (like Pogorelich) and stopped recording. He's resumed concertizing but his performances are getting increasingly bizarre. There was live recording of bunch of Nocturnes, from post breakdown, floating around that I remember polarized opinions but I'm not sure where they can be get nowadays.

[snyprrr]

Gavrilov had bit of reputation of shoot first, ask questions later type of pianist, fabulous technique whit not much thought, which I think is not wholly deserved. He was't the greatest colorist but there were some interesting ideas in his playing. Chopin wise he didn't record much: excellent set of Etudes, decent set ballades and 2nd Sonata which I honestly don't remember much. Ballades and Sonata he recorded twice, for EMI and DG I think.

Mid 90s he had some sort of breakdown (like Pogorelich) and stopped recording. He's resumed concertizing but his performances are getting increasingly bizarre. There was live recording of bunch of Nocturnes, from post breakdown, floating around that I remember polarized opinions but I'm not sure where they can be get nowadays.

someone here said he "tends towards coarseness"


Anyhow, there IS something about Chopin that doesn't hamper me the way other... uh... "old time classical romantic" Composers do. I can't tell yet, but I think I might prefer him to Liszt, but, we'll see. Chopin certainly belies his "sickly" (frail boy) reputation in the outside world. And he certainly is tuneful, and seemingly playing games (inspired by Haydn??),...

BUT THERE MUST BE SOMETHING THERE-why do so many Pianists make it sound like Chopin played in a herky jerky manner, or those "rose thorn" grace notes, or just the odd declamatory way, and these odd "rests",... is this The Devil's Rubato??

Then you hea rsomeone play the same piece in a prosaic manner...


madness!!!!