Chopin Recordings

[Brian]

I have the Hatto CD (of course!) You must mean Matsuzawa.

http://www.farhanmalik.com/hatto/chopin1.html

Oh shoot, I got my Yuki(o)s confused. That's embarrassing.  I even went and listened to the wrong person's etudes to compare them directly...

I was listening on headphones so the left/right issue was really clear vs. in a room where it would probably feel more natural.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Amusing comments from Lim in the booklet

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/32/000169823.pdf

Phew! maybe he should stick to playing the piano. To me, op. 10/1 sounds like a study in major-key arpeggios accompanied by a deep bass, and 10/2 like a study in minor-key chromatic scales for the weaker 3-4-5 fingers. Etc.

[(poco) Sforzando]

By far my favorite recordings of Chopin's piano music is "The Real Chopin" box set, played on period pianos.

Why so? because it's played on period instruments, or because of some unique qualities of the interpretations?

[(poco) Sforzando]

The one everyone's going to spend all summer talking about!



Retro cover art style (including the logo) from Decca. Lim recently presented these works live in concert at Carnegie Hall - attended by our friend (poco) Sforzando - and it would be interesting to hear how the two performances compare. This album was recorded in mid-December 2023 and seemingly rushed to press by Decca. One more strange housekeeping note: every nickname ever accorded to any of the etudes, and quite a few nicknames that I had never heard before, are listed on the digital release. (e.g. Qobuz says Op. 10 No. 4 is "Torrent", and No. 8 from the same set is "Sunshine")

The best etudes here are characterized by crystal-clear accuracy and balances that reveal the melodic appeal of the works behind or amid the cascades of notes. Lim is so technically assured and confident that he can treat Chopin's challenges as the means, not the end, of the works. This is clear in pieces like Op. 10 Nos. 2 and 4, and Op. 25 Nos. 6 and 9 (the last of which is the jauntiest and cheeriest I have ever heard). Meanwhile the slower, more poetic works occasionally also give Lim a chance to impress: I very much like his way with the fragile beauty of Op. 25 No. 7. The final etude of the 24, meanwhile, is simply relentless - he does make some attempts to differentiate the repetitions, but, basically, it's a shock-and-awe speed run that is meant to show what humans are capable of.

On the other hand, sometimes Lim gets a little too facile with the technical challenges. Op. 10 No. 11 seems "oily" to me, which I guess is another way of saying slick. Op. 25 No. 1 is a dreamy impressionist blur, but at 2:16 maybe a little too rushed to achieve the kind of poetry he is trying to find. Op. 25 No. 4 (which apparently is nicknamed "Paganini"?) is simply too fast to achieve the kind of fun syncopated bounce that is possible in this work (compare to Yukio Yokoyama, a.k.a. Joyce Hatto) [EDIT: Yuki Matsuzawa, not Yukio Yokoyama].

I do not like the rather dry recorded sound, which puts the piano squarely on the left of the acoustic picture and reduces the effect of the bass. This kind of cold, tinny sound quality makes it very hard for a pianist to offer any emotional expression, so in that respect, Lim has been done a disservice by Decca. The label had better address this for future releases if they want to do right by an artist that they (and much of the musical establishment) see as a future superstar. I was more impressed by the live Liszt recording and wonder if it will set a pattern of an artist more interesting live than in studio.

Using the ClassicsToday model of an "artistic quality" rating and a "sound quality" rating, both out of 10, I'd probably go with a disappointed 7/7. Maybe 8/7.

My copy has yet to arrive, but "relentless" is not a bad word to describe what I heard at Carnegie in the Revolutionary and the last three of 25. Yunchan has his elements of poetry, as in the excellent 25/7, but from the Decca clips I've heard online so far, it feels like he's trying to play some of these etudes faster than anyone ever has, and I want them to breathe a little more. Of course, none of this will hold water with the Yunchan Lim Fan Cult - that is, Fan Club - on Facebook, for whom the young man can do no wrong and no other pianist can do anything right. But I'm not about to throw away Pollini, Perahia, Ashkenazy, Zayas, etc. (I have "Hatto" too, but have yet to listen to "her.")

Based on what I've heard so far, YCL's pianism is better suited to Liszt and Rachmaninoff than to Chopin.

However, here's a version of the "sunshine" etude, that is 10/8 with its F major arpeggios, which I particularly like for its grace and humor, from British-Indonesian pianist George Harliono who did not get past preliminaries in the Cliburn 2022: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sda-6AgOTw&t=1s

And a version from Beatrice Rana of the G# minor in thirds, which may not be to all tastes because of its tempo fluctuations, but which I find original and inventive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pQYEigYKpg

[Atriod]

The one everyone's going to spend all summer talking about!



Retro cover art style (including the logo) from Decca. Lim recently presented these works live in concert at Carnegie Hall - attended by our friend (poco) Sforzando - and it would be interesting to hear how the two performances compare. This album was recorded in mid-December 2023 and seemingly rushed to press by Decca. One more strange housekeeping note: every nickname ever accorded to any of the etudes, and quite a few nicknames that I had never heard before, are listed on the digital release. (e.g. Qobuz says Op. 10 No. 4 is "Torrent", and No. 8 from the same set is "Sunshine")

The best etudes here are characterized by crystal-clear accuracy and balances that reveal the melodic appeal of the works behind or amid the cascades of notes. Lim is so technically assured and confident that he can treat Chopin's challenges as the means, not the end, of the works. This is clear in pieces like Op. 10 Nos. 2 and 4, and Op. 25 Nos. 6 and 9 (the last of which is the jauntiest and cheeriest I have ever heard). Meanwhile the slower, more poetic works occasionally also give Lim a chance to impress: I very much like his way with the fragile beauty of Op. 25 No. 7. The final etude of the 24, meanwhile, is simply relentless - he does make some attempts to differentiate the repetitions, but, basically, it's a shock-and-awe speed run that is meant to show what humans are capable of.

On the other hand, sometimes Lim gets a little too facile with the technical challenges. Op. 10 No. 11 seems "oily" to me, which I guess is another way of saying slick. Op. 25 No. 1 is a dreamy impressionist blur, but at 2:16 maybe a little too rushed to achieve the kind of poetry he is trying to find. Op. 25 No. 4 (which apparently is nicknamed "Paganini"?) is simply too fast to achieve the kind of fun syncopated bounce that is possible in this work (compare to Yukio Yokoyama, a.k.a. Joyce Hatto) [EDIT: Yuki Matsuzawa, not Yukio Yokoyama].

I do not like the rather dry recorded sound, which puts the piano squarely on the left of the acoustic picture and reduces the effect of the bass. This kind of cold, tinny sound quality makes it very hard for a pianist to offer any emotional expression, so in that respect, Lim has been done a disservice by Decca. The label had better address this for future releases if they want to do right by an artist that they (and much of the musical establishment) see as a future superstar. I was more impressed by the live Liszt recording and wonder if it will set a pattern of an artist more interesting live than in studio.

Using the ClassicsToday model of an "artistic quality" rating and a "sound quality" rating, both out of 10, I'd probably go with a disappointed 7/7. Maybe 8/7.

Great review, thanks Brian! I was most curious about these after the Transcendental Etudes. When I was doing my blind comparisons him and Cziffra were the two that starkly stood out among the others. Lim was bordering on unrelenting but then he got to the A flat major Ricordanza and it was almost as sensitively played as Claudio Arrau. In the end for a new recording to add to the collection Kirill Gerstein won out but I might add Lim at some point. Haochen Zhang fared the worst, not coming across all that well in the rather stiff competition.

What are your favorite cycles for the Chopin Etudes?

[Mandryka]

Great review, thanks Brian! I was most curious about these after the Transcendental Etudes. When I was doing my blind comparisons him and Cziffra were the two that starkly stood out among the others. Lim was bordering on unrelenting but then he got to the A flat major Ricordanza and it was almost as sensitively played as Claudio Arrau. In the end for a new recording to add to the collection Kirill Gerstein won out but I might add Lim at some point. Haochen Zhang fared the worst, not coming across all that well in the rather stiff competition.

The real interesting Yunchan Lim for me (I haven't heard his TEs by the way) has been the Annees

https://open.spotify.com/album/54b0CU6yO7OlQef9W4dWb4?si=jpncm3kYTNu9qsDxwPBJHg

[AnotherSpin]

I started listening to Yunchan Lim's Etudes album a couple of times, but couldn't advance very far.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yunchan's Etudes just arrived, complete with his comments. "I think of Chopin as an immortal genius." Do tell!

[Atriod]

Amusing comments from Lim in the booklet

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/32/000169823.pdf

Great liner notes! Always nice to read clearly articulated thoughts from the artist and not the usual generic composer bios "Beethoven was going deaf, he was melancholy and listening to Linkin Park in his room all day."

Also takes some guts to name the pianists that inspired you for each piece and say why as that will inevitably draw comparisons.

The real interesting Yunchan Lim for me (I haven't heard his TEs by the way) has been the Annees

https://open.spotify.com/album/54b0CU6yO7OlQef9W4dWb4?si=jpncm3kYTNu9qsDxwPBJHg

Yes I liked this and the Moonlight Sonata on that disc very much, if I had to pick one Lim disc to buy I'd likely buy this one over the Liszt Transcendental Etudes. The Annees was sort of like Zoltán Kocsis' in that it was direct and phrasing bordering on slightly hard. But it was never bombastic.

[Florestan]

Amusing comments from Lim in the booklet

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/32/000169823.pdf

Hmmmm...

Within the Études, there are such things as the agony of the earth, the regrets of an older person, love letters, longing, and freedom.

This, and Lim's subsequent brief description of each individual etude reminded me of Chopin's own comments upon reading Friedrich Wieck's review of the La ci darem la mano Variations:

'I have received from Kassel, from a certain German, a ten-page review where, after a vast preamble he sets about dissecting [the Variations] bar by bar. He explains that it is some fantastical tableau. Of the second Variation, he says that Don Juan is running with Leporello, of the third that he is squeezing Zerlina and that Masetto – in the left hand – is angry, of the fifth bar of the adagio he declares that Don Juan is kissing Zerlina in D flat major. To die from a German's imagination!'

[Atriod]

Hmmmm...

This, and Lim's subsequent brief description of each individual etude reminded me of Chopin's own comments upon reading Friedrich Wieck's review of the La ci darem la mano Variations:

'I have received from Kassel, from a certain German, a ten-page review where, after a vast preamble he sets about dissecting [the Variations] bar by bar. He explains that it is some fantastical tableau. Of the second Variation, he says that Don Juan is running with Leporello, of the third that he is squeezing Zerlina and that Masetto – in the left hand – is angry, of the fifth bar of the adagio he declares that Don Juan is kissing Zerlina in D flat major. To die from a German's imagination!'

His liner notes are out there for sure. Likening one of the etudes to the start of the early universe? Still, I don't mind reading some of these artist's ideas, at worse they're easy to dismiss at best you find a new way to hear them. With many of Brahms late piano works I had always heard this slight pensive quality to them even in the ones that are very obviously in a major key. I heard Lars Vogt say the same in an interview years later.

[Florestan]

His liner notes are out there for sure. Likening one of the etudes to the start of the early universe? Still, I don't mind reading some of these artist's ideas, at worse they're easy to dismiss at best you find a new way to hear them. With many of Brahms late piano works I had always heard this slight pensive quality to them even in the ones that are very obviously in a major key. I heard Lars Vogt say the same in an interview years later.

Sure. It's just that Chopin himself disliked the invention of programs for his music, hence my amusement.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Sure. It's just that Chopin himself disliked the invention of programs for his music, hence my amusement.

If it helps Yunchan realize his conception, no matter. But after listening to his Chopin disc just once (albeit on poor equipment), it does feel if nothing else just fast! And a comparison to the Etudes from "Joyce Hatto," a 10/10 from Classics Today, shows that "Hatto" allows the music to breathe more while being equally virtuosic. Almost every one of Lim's timings is faster than "Hatto's." Still, listening again to Lim's Liszt TE and Annees, I am bowled over by his performances. There is tremendous drama in his Dante fantasia, and just the right (for me) freedom and passion in the three Petrarch sonnets.  Feux Follets has a wonderful lightness and insouciance. Etc. The recorded sound on the TEs is ideal, though the Annees sound a bit clangorous in the louder passages. (Too high a recording volume?)

[Atriod]

I just listened to some scatterings of Chopin Etudes from Cortot (EMI mega box, Biddulph. I prefer Marston's Biddulph transfers over Art&Son for his acoustic era), Friedman (Naxos Historical), Youri Egorov (EMI box), and Horowitz (studio, some live), these were the pianists that Lim mentioned in the booklet. I certainly agree with Lim's description of Cortot. It is nice to see these yoots acknowledge the old wizards like Cortot and not avoid them because of surface noise. Maybe pianists are more forgiving of this than the general public, I recall a Youtube video with a professional pianist that had what must have been a ~$200k hifi saying audiophiles tended to avoid poor sounding orchestral recordings and he couldn't imagine not listening to Lhevinne. Lim's selections include pianists I gravitate to more in the Chopin Etudes as I noticed I don't tend to care for ones like Maurizio Pollini or Ashkenazy. The best performances I have heard are from Juana Zayas.

I am waiting to hear Lim on my main speakers. I sold our speakers at this house and am slumming it with some I had to pull from the speaker graveyard.

[Mandryka]

Great liner notes! Always nice to read clearly articulated thoughts from the artist and not the usual generic composer bios "Beethoven was going deaf, he was melancholy and listening to Linkin Park in his room all day."

Also takes some guts to name the pianists that inspired you for each piece and say why as that will inevitably draw comparisons.

Yes I liked this and the Moonlight Sonata on that disc very much, if I had to pick one Lim disc to buy I'd likely buy this one over the Liszt Transcendental Etudes. The Annees was sort of like Zoltán Kocsis' in that it was direct and phrasing bordering on slightly hard. But it was never bombastic.

Have you heard the recording of Ji-Yoon Park and Yunchan Lim playing in the Dvorak op 81 piano quintet? Ji- Yu Park is another one to watch!

https://theviolinchannel.com/ji-yoon-park-radio-france-philharmonic-orchestra-concertmaster-new-appointment/

[(poco) Sforzando]

The one everyone's going to spend all summer talking about!



Retro cover art style (including the logo) from Decca. Lim recently presented these works live in concert at Carnegie Hall - attended by our friend (poco) Sforzando - and it would be interesting to hear how the two performances compare. This album was recorded in mid-December 2023 and seemingly rushed to press by Decca. One more strange housekeeping note: every nickname ever accorded to any of the etudes, and quite a few nicknames that I had never heard before, are listed on the digital release. (e.g. Qobuz says Op. 10 No. 4 is "Torrent", and No. 8 from the same set is "Sunshine")

The best etudes here are characterized by crystal-clear accuracy and balances that reveal the melodic appeal of the works behind or amid the cascades of notes. Lim is so technically assured and confident that he can treat Chopin's challenges as the means, not the end, of the works. This is clear in pieces like Op. 10 Nos. 2 and 4, and Op. 25 Nos. 6 and 9 (the last of which is the jauntiest and cheeriest I have ever heard). Meanwhile the slower, more poetic works occasionally also give Lim a chance to impress: I very much like his way with the fragile beauty of Op. 25 No. 7. The final etude of the 24, meanwhile, is simply relentless - he does make some attempts to differentiate the repetitions, but, basically, it's a shock-and-awe speed run that is meant to show what humans are capable of.

On the other hand, sometimes Lim gets a little too facile with the technical challenges. Op. 10 No. 11 seems "oily" to me, which I guess is another way of saying slick. Op. 25 No. 1 is a dreamy impressionist blur, but at 2:16 maybe a little too rushed to achieve the kind of poetry he is trying to find. Op. 25 No. 4 (which apparently is nicknamed "Paganini"?) is simply too fast to achieve the kind of fun syncopated bounce that is possible in this work (compare to Yukio Yokoyama, a.k.a. Joyce Hatto) [EDIT: Yuki Matsuzawa, not Yukio Yokoyama].

I do not like the rather dry recorded sound, which puts the piano squarely on the left of the acoustic picture and reduces the effect of the bass. This kind of cold, tinny sound quality makes it very hard for a pianist to offer any emotional expression, so in that respect, Lim has been done a disservice by Decca. The label had better address this for future releases if they want to do right by an artist that they (and much of the musical establishment) see as a future superstar. I was more impressed by the live Liszt recording and wonder if it will set a pattern of an artist more interesting live than in studio.

Using the ClassicsToday model of an "artistic quality" rating and a "sound quality" rating, both out of 10, I'd probably go with a disappointed 7/7. Maybe 8/7.

Hearing YCL again on a better speaker, I do hear the sound emerging more from one channel, but on extracting the WAV I see no evidence of that. I think the piano sounds pretty good, with a nice sparkling treble, and while some of his etudes are fast, on average they are not noticeably faster than Pollini or Perahia. YCL is always faster than "Hatto," whom I finally heard and like a lot. His most absurd fast tempo is "Paganini" 25/4. As for 25/12, he does relent in the Ab major episode, though he's pretty relentless once the music returns to C minor. So on the whole a good set, though not one that should cause all other pianists to close up shop.

[Que]

By far my favorite recordings of Chopin's piano music is "The Real Chopin" box set, played on period pianos.

I largely share your enthusiasm for this set, with one caveat.
First of all, what impresses is the selection of excellent contemporary Chopin interpreters. Secondly the Érards and Pleyels that are used are all in excellent condition and well recorded. The drawback, which could be minor or significant depending on personal preference, is that most pianists on the set are apparently not very familiar with these period instruments and do IMO not always take full advantage of their possibilities or adapt to their properties.

To illustrate what I mean a quote by Paolo Giacometti on the differences between an Érard and a modern Steinway:

"The different tonal worlds of the two instruments result primarily from the parallel stringing and largely wooden frame of the Érard, and the cross-stringing and steel frame (to accommodate the higher tension of the strings and case) of the Steinway. The sound of the Érard is thus more stringy and dies away differently, while the various registers are more individual. The Steinway glories in the resonance of the strings and case, and the mélange of the notes. Since relationships between the immense richness of colour and timbre in Ravel's music are therefore different, this is naturally of influence on the interpretative choices made by the performer. The pedalling, dynamic transitions, balance between the parts, harmonic colours, build-up of tension, tempos – all these must be approached differently depending on the instrument used. This is clearest of all in relation to tempos".

IMO this means, for instance, that you not only can play in a faster tempo on an Érard, you also (generally speaking) should because of the shorter decay...

[prémont]

The drawback, which could be minor or significant depending on personal preference, is that most pianists on the set are apparently not very familiar with these eperiod instruments and do IMO not always take full advantage of their possibilities or adapt to their properties.

Excellent post @Que. this is precisely the reason why I haven't purchased this box after having purchased and listened to four different items from the box.

[Mandryka]

I largely share your enthusiasm for this set, with one caveat.
First of all, what impresses is the selection of excellent contemporary Chopin interpreters. Secondly the Érards and Pleyels that are used are all in excellent condition and well recorded. The drawback, which could be minor or significant depending on personal preference, is that most pianists on the set are apparently not very familiar with these eperiod instruments and do IMO not always take full advantage of their possibilities or adapt to their properties.

To illustrate what I mean a quote by Paolo Giacometti on the differences between an Érard and a modern Steinway:

"The different tonal worlds of the two instruments result primarily from the parallel stringing and largely wooden frame of the Érard, and the cross-stringing and steel frame (to accommodate the higher tension of the strings and case) of the Steinway. The sound of the Érard is thus more stringy and dies away differently, while the various registers are more individual. The Steinway glories in the resonance of the strings and case, and the mélange of the notes. Since relationships between the immense richness of colour and timbre in Ravel's music are therefore different, this is naturally of influence on the interpretative choices made by the performer. The pedalling, dynamic transitions, balance between the parts, harmonic colours, build-up of tension, tempos – all these must be approached differently depending on the instrument used. This is clearest of all in relation to tempos".

IMO this means, for instance, that you not only can play in a faster tempo on an Érard, you also (generally speaking) should because of the shorter decay...

Well I'm not convinced, either by the general principle (should mostly play faster because the decay is shorter) or by the specific case of these performances on these pianos. But let's take an example rather than talk in abstractions. What's your beef with Wojciech Switala's preludes and Tatyana Shebranova's etudes or Colleen Lee's sonata?

[Mandryka]

I just listened to some scatterings of Chopin Etudes from Cortot (EMI mega box, Biddulph. I prefer Marston's Biddulph transfers over Art&Son for his acoustic era), Friedman (Naxos Historical), Youri Egorov (EMI box), and Horowitz (studio, some live), these were the pianists that Lim mentioned in the booklet. I certainly agree with Lim's description of Cortot. It is nice to see these yoots acknowledge the old wizards like Cortot and not avoid them because of surface noise. Maybe pianists are more forgiving of this than the general public, I recall a Youtube video with a professional pianist that had what must have been a ~$200k hifi saying audiophiles tended to avoid poor sounding orchestral recordings and he couldn't imagine not listening to Lhevinne. Lim's selections include pianists I gravitate to more in the Chopin Etudes as I noticed I don't tend to care for ones like Maurizio Pollini or Ashkenazy. The best performances I have heard are from Juana Zayas.

I am waiting to hear Lim on my main speakers. I sold our speakers at this house and am slumming it with some I had to pull from the speaker graveyard.

In fact, what Yunchan said in that booklet prompted me to listen to Egerov's etudes - I think what he does is a bit special actually - powerful. I only heard op 10, but I noticed a concert with op 25 has been released so I'll check it soon.