Beethoven's failures ???

[glindhot]

In a book I have there is a chapter headed "Famous Failures"
followed by a sub-heading:
"Some who failed (apparently) when young
. . . but succeeded anyway"

I was flabbergasted by the Beethoven entry which began with these two remarks:
1. Handled the violin awkwardly.
2. His music teacher told him his composing was terrible.

Comments, please.

[mszczuj]

Don't read books like this.

[Gurn Blanston]

In a book I have there is a chapter headed "Famous Failures"
followed by a sub-heading:
"Some who failed (apparently) when young
. . . but succeeded anyway"

I was flabbergasted by the Beethoven entry which began with these two remarks:
1. Handled the violin awkwardly.
2. His music teacher told him his composing was terrible.

Comments, please.

1. He didn't play the violin; he played the viola (well enough to be in the Elector's orchestra)
2. His teacher didn't teach him composition, he taught him keyboard.

So....

[Scarpia]

1. He didn't play the violin; he played the viola (well enough to be in the Elector's orchestra)
2. His teacher didn't teach him composition, he taught him keyboard.

So....

He was also a prodigy that gave his first public concert at age 7 and was court organist at 13.

2. His music teacher told him his composing was terrible.

A lot of people said Beethoven's composing was terrible even when he was writing his greatest works.  Upon hearing the 7th symphony, Weber has been quoted as commenting that Beethoven was "ripe for the madhouse." 

[Brian]

A lot of people said Beethoven's composing was terrible even when he was writing his greatest works.  Upon hearing the 7th symphony, Weber has been quoted as commenting that Beethoven was "ripe for the madhouse." 

One of his very first published works, the first violin sonata I think, was panned as being all learning and no spirit.

I thought this thread would be about Wellington's Victory 

[Mandryka]

I think Furtwangler thought that the Missa Solemnis was a failiour -- or maybe I'm mistaken.

[Gurn Blanston]

I think Furtwangler thought that the Missa Solemnis was a failure -- or maybe I'm mistaken.

Or maybe Furtwängler was...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I think Furtwangler thought that the Missa Solemnis was a failiour -- or maybe I'm mistaken.

No, no. It's the other way around. Furtwängler worshipped the Missa. So much so in fact he was reluctant to perform it because of its exalted nature.

[Scarpia]

There are certainly works of Beethoven that to me seem unsuccessful, but I generally discover that my impression is not generally shared.  I find it hard to define "failure" for a work of art.

[prémont]

There are certainly works of Beethoven that to me seem unsuccessful, but I generally discover that my impression is not generally shared.  I find it hard to define "failure" for a work of art.

I feel in the same way as you with some of his works.

Which works do you think of?

[Scarpia]

I feel in the same way as you with some of his works.

Which works do you think of?

Piano Concerto #2, first movement of the Violin Concerto.  Some of the piano Sonatas, recently the Pastorale, but often I find another interpretation fixes my problem.

[prémont]

Piano Concerto #2, first movement of the Violin Concerto.  Some of the piano Sonatas, recently the Pastorale, but often I find another interpretation fixes my problem.

Interesting, because I think these works are very successful, whereas I have problems with the Diabelli variations, Missa Solemnis and the Emperor concerto.

[Scarpia]

Interesting, because I think these works are very successful, whereas I have problems with the Diabelli variations, Missa Solemnis and the Emperor concerto.

Never having listened to the Missa Solemnis all the way through, I can't argue there.  I rather like the Emperor.  I would have said the 4th symphony was a failure, until I heard Immerseel's recording.  The 4th piano concerto is still in the don't-get-it column.  Likely there is a version out there that will convince me.

[Bogey]

Wellington's Victory (Op. 91)....his only dud?

[Scarpia]

Wellington's Victory (Op. 91)....his only dud?

Perhaps not a subtle work, from what I know about it, but not a failure if it accomplished what it was meant to accomplish.  (Never heard it, myself.)

[mjwal]

Wellington's Victory is hilarious - what's not to like? But seriously - how does it fail? To do/be what? It was a huge success in its day.
There are works by Beethoven that fail to convince me of their necessity - but that says more about me than about Beethoven, surely. Greatness is beyond those two impostors, success and failure. Mind you, I've never listened to Der glorreiche Augenblick, for instance - might I say "It's not very glorious" and dismiss it as a failure?

[Gurn Blanston]

Wellington's Victory (Op. 91)....his only dud?

It was his biggest public success in his lifetime. And he liked it well enough to either start or defend against (can't remember now which it was) a lawsuit over the rights to it. It isn't art, but that doesn't make it a failure. I know plenty of art (not by Beethoven) that I would happily flush in favor of Wellington's Victory! 

[Gurn Blanston]

Wellington's Victory is hilarious - what's not to like? But seriously - how does it fail? To do/be what? It was a huge success in its day.
There are works by Beethoven that fail to convince me of their necessity - but that says more about me than about Beethoven, surely. Greatness is beyond those two impostors, success and failure. Mind you, I've never listened to Der glorreiche Augenblick, for instance - might I say "It's not very glorious" and dismiss it as a failure?

Der glorreiche Augenblick was a tough listen for me, but now, 3 or 4 years along, perhaps subsequent listening will have given me a different perspective. The greatest music can't overcome a crappy libretto though...

[Scarpia]

Wellington's Victory is hilarious - what's not to like? But seriously - how does it fail? To do/be what? It was a huge success in its day.

Seems like I need to hear this piece.  I find I have it on a disc with Dorati's recording of the Tchaikovsky 1812 overture, on Mercury.  Something to the effect that percussion has been replaced by authentic muskets and cannons.  Seems like the version to hear. 

[Scarpia]

Der glorreiche Augenblick was a tough listen for me, but now, 3 or 4 years along, perhaps subsequent listening will have given me a different perspective. The greatest music can't overcome a crappy libretto though...

An allusion to Wagner?