Witold Lutoslawski (1913-1994)

[Mirror Image]

I like Salonen/LA Philharmonic on Sony.

[not edward]

I like Salonen/LA Philharmonic on Sony.

I think I would tend to agree here. The composer's own recording is also strong, but Salonen's orchestral playing is IMO superior. I don't think the Naxos Wit or the Gardner are on the same level. An interestingly slower alternative view of the work is offered by Kofman on cpo--I don't think it's entirely successful but it's a big contrast to other readings, and is interestingly paired with the only reading of the 2nd to completely convince me of the work's merits.

(FWIW, my 3rd of choice is BPO/Lutoslawski. The composer may have compared it unfavourably with Salonen's recording, but I think he was being overly self-critical here.)

[lescamil]

Salonen with Lutoslawski has not been beat in any recordings I have heard, and that goes for just about everything purely orchestral. Some of the solo works such as the Piano Concerto and Les Espaces du Sommeil have better recordings with their respective soloists.

[snyprrr]

I think I would tend to agree here. The composer's own recording is also strong, but Salonen's orchestral playing is IMO superior. I don't think the Naxos Wit or the Gardner are on the same level. An interestingly slower alternative view of the work is offered by Kofman on cpo--I don't think it's entirely successful but it's a big contrast to other readings, and is interestingly paired with the only reading of the 2nd to completely convince me of the work's merits.

(FWIW, my 3rd of choice is BPO/Lutoslawski. The composer may have compared it unfavourably with Salonen's recording, but I think he was being overly self-critical here.)

Are you sure you're not speaking of the famous 3rd, in which Salonen and the composer are definitely rivals,... but the 4th?

I like Salonen/LA Philharmonic on Sony.

... because Salonen's recording is very early, and I thought someone newer would have perhaps eased into it more (I seem to recall Salonen being not totally transcendent in the 4th, like he wasn't ready to make it sound better than it is- eh? (not saying it isn't great))?

No, I'm sold on Salonen in the 3rd- I should probably again get that blue Sony.


Also, that EMI 3-cd: does anyone know is it a regular width jewel case or what?



To me, ole Luto has such a limited Ooo-vre- his Discography is pretty well mapped out now and there's really nothing to GET (oh no, what shall we do?!?!). The EMI set and Salonen cover most all you'd really want,... plus, I like the Alban Berg a lot in the SQ,... maybe the Double Concerto on Philips,... Cello Concerto with Slava,... what is there?,...

So, whp do we like in the Piano Concerto? There's quite a lot to choose from. I'd be a sucker just for the DG, but there's too many others contending. Eh? (have I asked this before?) (am I gearing up for a CDCDCD run???)

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Who else likes Barenboim/CSO in the 3rd? It's faster overall than other recordings I know (27:53), and generally different enough from other performances to be worth the listen.

[not edward]

Are you sure you're not speaking of the famous 3rd, in which Salonen and the composer are definitely rivals,... but the 4th?

Yep. Lutoslawski recorded the 4th for Polskie Nagranie a year before his death.

Re: the piano concerto; I can't go far beyond Zimerman/Lutoslawski. Poblocka/Kord or Crossley/Salonen would probably be my second pick; Paleczny/Wit I find uncompetitive and Lortie/Gardner was a bit of a disappointment to me, as I thought the work would suit Lortie well.

Oddly enough, I've never got around to hearing the Barenboim 3rd.

[lescamil]

For the Piano Concerto, Andsnes and Welser-Möst (I forget which orchestra) is the best one I know, both for soloist and orchestra/conductor. Andsnes brings out some of the hidden romantic qualities while being attentive to what really makes the work Lutoslawski. Welser-Möst brings an almost Boulez or Salonen-like amount of detail to the orchestral part. Even better is that this is a live recording, making the sound a bit more vibrant than the others.

[Mirror Image]

Has anyone here been collecting the Opera Omnia series on the Accord label? I'm thinking of picking up the recording with Symphonies 2 & 4, but there are three other volumes so far in the series. The newest volume contains Symphony No. 1 and Concerto for Orchestra.

[snyprrr]

For the Piano Concerto, Andsnes and Welser-Möst (I forget which orchestra) is the best one I know, both for soloist and orchestra/conductor. Andsnes brings out some of the hidden romantic qualities while being attentive to what really makes the work Lutoslawski. Welser-Möst brings an almost Boulez or Salonen-like amount of detail to the orchestral part. Even better is that this is a live recording, making the sound a bit more vibrant than the others.

Well, this one was only 47 cents... plus shipping! But, yea, how can one go wrong here?...

Has anyone here been collecting the Opera Omnia series on the Accord label? I'm thinking of picking up the recording with Symphonies 2 & 4, but there are three other volumes so far in the series. The newest volume contains Symphony No. 1 and Concerto for Orchestra.

I just went ahead and... AGAIN... ordered that 3 disc EMI set (I have the 2 disc set... then there was the OTHER 2 disc set... both EMI, different, ... but now the three discs are all in one place... thank God it was only $6), and also Salonen's 3&4 (yes, also reordered, but only pennies).

My point being I can't see any reason to go beyond those viciously awesome original recordings,... I'll even buy them again instead of trying out 'New' Lutoslawski. I mean, I almost had to get Zimerman just on principle,... a total CDCDCD move if there ever was one. Thankfully, the penny pincher won out there, haha!!


Someone would really really have to do a song and dance to get me to try ANY other WL Cycle or Series, at this point. I mean, Salonen would be the obvious choice, anyhow. WHAT actual works are more stupendous in the Naxos Cycle?... Chandos?... Accord?...

Sure, works like Symphony 2 surely invite competition... but I'd like to hear something totally different, then, than what's offered on EMI.

They've sealed up Lutoslawski every which way till Sunday... and, he's got quite a smaller Works List than many others. Surely the book on WL is closing and consensus will begin to build on recordings? I mean, HOW MANY discs of 'Complete Piano Music' can one stand? The only reason I got the 3-EMI was to get the 'Preludes & Fugue' and the ultra rare 'Postlude 1'. (wasn't that on the old EMI disc with Schmidt and Busoni?)


btw- i like the ABQ in the SQ (pdq!)

[lescamil]

Has anyone here been collecting the Opera Omnia series on the Accord label? I'm thinking of picking up the recording with Symphonies 2 & 4, but there are three other volumes so far in the series. The newest volume contains Symphony No. 1 and Concerto for Orchestra.

They're all available (6 volumes now) on MOG. Initial listenings reveal a more than capable Lutoslawski conductor in Jacek Kaspszyk, whom a friend of mine has long recommended to me for this music. The chamber music performances are also great. Color me impressed so far.

[Mirror Image]

I just went ahead and... AGAIN... ordered that 3 disc EMI set (I have the 2 disc set... then there was the OTHER 2 disc set... both EMI, different, ... but now the three discs are all in one place... thank God it was only $6), and also Salonen's 3&4 (yes, also reordered, but only pennies).

My point being I can't see any reason to go beyond those viciously awesome original recordings,... I'll even buy them again instead of trying out 'New' Lutoslawski. I mean, I almost had to get Zimerman just on principle,... a total CDCDCD move if there ever was one. Thankfully, the penny pincher won out there, haha!!

Someone would really really have to do a song and dance to get me to try ANY other WL Cycle or Series, at this point. I mean, Salonen would be the obvious choice, anyhow. WHAT actual works are more stupendous in the Naxos Cycle?... Chandos?... Accord?...

Sure, works like Symphony 2 surely invite competition... but I'd like to hear something totally different, then, than what's offered on EMI.

They've sealed up Lutoslawski every which way till Sunday... and, he's got quite a smaller Works List than many others. Surely the book on WL is closing and consensus will begin to build on recordings? I mean, HOW MANY discs of 'Complete Piano Music' can one stand? The only reason I got the 3-EMI was to get the 'Preludes & Fugue' and the ultra rare 'Postlude 1'. (wasn't that on the old EMI disc with Schmidt and Busoni?)

btw- i like the ABQ in the SQ (pdq!)

Luto's own recordings on EMI are really good, but obviously not the final word on his music. Besides Salonen, I do like Gardner's performances on Chandos a lot. I haven't heard people talk about these recordings all that much for whatever reason, but I think Gardner's series certainly outclasses Wit's. It seems to be a general consensus that Wit's performances aren't up to par with older recordings nor has he got the edge on some of these newer recordings coming out on the Accord label, which seem to be getting incredibly favorable reviews so far. I'd like to collect these at some point, but I think I'll wait once some other volumes are released, which two more volumes will released later this month.

[Mirror Image]

They're all available (6 volumes now) on MOG. Initial listenings reveal a more than capable Lutoslawski conductor in Jacek Kaspszyk, whom a friend of mine has long recommended to me for this music. The chamber music performances are also great. Color me impressed so far.

Yep, it seems this series is a win/win so far. Definitely will be acquiring them all at some point.

[Mirror Image]

Two new additions to Lutoslawski catalog:

[snyprrr]

Luto's own recordings on EMI are really good, but obviously not the final word on his music. Besides Salonen, I do like Gardner's performances on Chandos a lot. I haven't heard people talk about these recordings all that much for whatever reason, but I think Gardner's series certainly outclasses Wit's. It seems to be a general consensus that Wit's performances aren't up to par with older recordings nor has he got the edge on some of these newer recordings coming out on the Accord label, which seem to be getting incredibly favorable reviews so far. I'd like to collect these at some point, but I think I'll wait once some other volumes are released, which two more volumes will released later this month.

Yea, if I want to supplement the 'Original' recordings, I'll wait until the dust settles and everyone comes into agreement. Still, can't wait to again hear that Salonen 3rd. I remember the 3rd being one of those things that impressed me early in my learning- probably heard it along with that Messiaen from Salonen.

[snyprrr]

Symphony No/3 (1983)

I just listened to Salonen again after decades, and I'm surprised how much of it I remember, just such a sweeping and at times mysterious score. It takes me back to when I discovered it at the library, maybe 20 years ago. This was what I thought was the 'Last Symphony'- the last Composer of High Modernism still writing something called a 'Symphony' (Penderecki having "turned back"). It was the last word in the Romantic Symphony tradition, in my mind, being more Modern sounding than Dutille...x ... well, I hadn't heard Gerhard at the time... but, anyway, the 3rd seemed to tower over the modern landscape as a "current" piece, written in the '80s,... and it had such a "hook", that open rat-a-tat-tat that hinged my listening. This music made this novice feel like he had arrived and could do anything!

And, I think the arrival of the more conservative 4th solidifies the 3rd's reign over Lutoslawski's arch. Anyhow, I forgot how powerful- almost like Simpson I thought- but such an original utterance, and form, and WL has always seemed like such a happy pappy concerning this work.

And Salonen's seamless and sumptuous reading, and the deliciously cool sounding recording instantly transport me. It might be Desert Island material.

[snyprrr]

Symphony No.4 (1992)

Salonen again,... this time it sounds like Bartok's 'Symphony' from 1954,... don't you think? I hear lots of Late Bartok. As I said before, I still feel that WL "settled down" and retreated from the edge a bit, and wrote a somewhat normal one-movement Symphony, but, how can this not be the final word on the Romantic Symphony?- it has an almost elegiac quality in its nobility and contour- but it doesn't give any real concession to '"popularity", meaning, he didn't do a Penderecki in the end, which is nice- that the Romantic Tradition ends like this rather than that. Maybe this paragraph doesn't make sense, hmm. Haha!!

[snyprrr]

Piano Concerto (1988)

How many recordings do we now have? Zimerman, Polacka(?), Ohlsson, Crossley, Andsnes, Lourie, Kupic,... and the Naxos guy! I mean, that's pretty impressive, and the PC seems to be poised to accept the award for Best PC of the Last 20 Years, simply by being the most well know,... I suppose.

I did ask you all what you thought here, but Andsnes was only .73 cents (and, I mean, it's Andsnes!... with FWM conducting!), so, what did I have to loose? But I'm going to ask: Is it too perfect? I mean, it's a quite sweet production, but I was almost disconcerted by Andsnes extreme virtuosity, as if it almost sounded  fake? I don't know,... anyhow, it sure is a pristine rendition. I mean, I'm not really complaining at all, it's just so... so perfect I don't know what to do, ack!! I think I really have to compare to Zimerman, who sounds just a tab more "relaxed" (whatever I mean by that).

It seems as though most all of the performances clock in at 25 minutes, and WL is pretty specific about timing, so, there's not too much to listen for there. Perhaps only the individuals' viruosity is the only thing that separates them? Here, Andsnes has such a razor sharp articulation in the upper registers that it sounds like each note was pasted on individually. The piano is just a fraction in front of the orchestra, which may add to that 'concertante' feeling, but it's nothing really noticeable. Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to find sooomething wrong with it because it's so perfect sounding.

Either way, what of the music? One can read our own CRCulver's take: he's just not into WL's Late Style too much, thinking it perhaps sounds to Romantic (and one can hear the  Big Romanticism here), but I was able to hear lots of things carried over from Symphony No.3. Still, it isn't THE most Avant-Garde work in history. Perhaps if this was the Gerhard PC (written in the '50s?) it would be held up now as the perfect combination of Modern & Romantic, but that would place this music much earlier than 1994. But I'm not sure how much earlier this music cooould have been written- maybe earlier '80s, but that just places it with Sym. 3. I like to see it an 'End Game' piece: the 'Gotterdammerung' of Romantic Style, dying in the fires of the New World.

Lots of the Composers of High Modernism became more 'Melodic', or something, seeing the Age of High Modernism die in the New Romanticism, so, I imagine, they felt the need to "do it right". And I think that's what WL achieves here, the sound of the end of an era. I know it's not the most brooding piece ever, but it does have a certain Tragic feel to it if you listen to it as such?.

The PC and the Symphony Np.4 do share a similar emotional core, and though I can appreciate Mr. Culver's questionings, I'd still hold this music up- not as something 'Brave'- but as the BEST example of what a 'Retreat' SHOULD sound like. mm?? Ultimately, I hear something Funereal here, and I don't know who else (Boulez? no, Xenakis? no, Ligeti? no) would have been the one to write this kind of music. WL: the most 'human' of the High Modernists?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Piano Concerto (1994)

Actually this dates from around 1988. He wasn't able to compose much in 1994, since he died early in the year.

Either way, what of the music? One can read our own CRCulver's take: he's just not into WL's Late Style too much, thinking it perhaps sounds to Romantic (and one can hear the  Big Romanticism here), but I was able to hear lots of things carried over from Symphony No.3. Still, it isn't THE most Avant-Garde work in history. Perhaps if this was the Gerhard PC (written in the '50s?) it would be held up now as the perfect combination of Modern & Romantic, but that would place this music much earlier than 1994. But I'm not sure how much earlier this music cooould have been written- maybe earlier '80s, but that just places it with Sym. 3. I like to see it an 'End Game' piece: the 'Gotterdammerung' of Romantic Style, dying in the fires of the New World.

By the same reasoning I could see Romantically-inclined listeners criticizing it for being too "modern" or "avant-garde." I see where you're coming from, and in the context of Luto's overall development, it looks like a nostalgic look back. But so what? Listened to on its own terms, I find it quite captivating. It's certainly one of the handful of his pieces I like to return to again and again.

WL: the most 'human' of the High Modernists?

Quite possibly, yes 

[snyprrr]

Actually this dates from around 1988. He wasn't able to compose much in 1994, since he died early in the year.

Well... hurmph ... the NERVE of him!! It must've been an afterthought! Maybe it was ghost-written by Corigliano?

Take my wife... please!

[Maciek]

Not sure if anyone is aware of NInA's Three composers site:

http://threecomposers.pl/

There's quite a selection of recordings to listen to on-line (hover over the name "Lutosławski" and select "music" to get to the list).