Herbert von Karajan

[Karl Henning]

People like Scarpia are always out to read the negative in what I write . . . .

I don't think that is necessarily quite fair to Scarps.

And, you must agree, John, that — like any of us — you would yourself benefit from considering if the way you express yourself at a given time, may be construed in a way which (a) you may not mean and/or (b) which may not reflect very well upon you.

[Mirror Image]

I don't think that is necessarily quite fair to Scarps.

And, you must agree, John, that — like any of us — you would yourself benefit from considering if the way you express yourself at a given time, may be construed in a way which (a) you may not mean and/or (b) which may not reflect very well upon you.

I suppose my general problem is that people read many of my comments as negative and they really aren't. This is the ultimate disadvantage of an online forum. You can't hear my voice nor see my body language. All you can do is read what's on the screen. I also think that it's a two-way street. If people take the time to civil and cordial with me, I will return the favor.

[kishnevi]

Friends,  I have a confession to admit.

I am beginning to like Karajan.

A few months back,  I would have told you that he was over polished and over marketed and possibly over recorded.....

But then I got his Bruckner cycle, and liked it very much, especially the first three symphonies, which I usually don't.

And then I got his late Mozart symphonies, and liked it very much.

And now I'm listening to the concluding minutes of his Mahler Fifth, and it's a great performance!

This threatens to become my top pick for the Fifth. (The Sixth is en route to me from Presto, but that will take a couple of more weeks to get to me.)

[Mirror Image]

Have you heard any of Karajan's Wagner performances, Jeffrey? Get his Ring. Sublime!

[kishnevi]

Have you heard any of Karajan's Wagner performances, Jeffrey? Get his Ring. Sublime!

No.  To be perfectly honest, I've already got more Ring than I can really listen to.  (Of course, that's what he said before he decided to get Haitink's ring and finish buying Zagrosek's.  So don't expect me to fetch that in any time soon).  (At the moment, the listen to pile includes one Walkure, one Siegfried, one Gotterdammerung on CD, and one Lohengrin and one Tristan and three installments of Levine's Ring on DVD.)
And I do want to get that Solti Wagner box.....

But at the moment I'd be more inclined to go after some of his other Wagner, including Meistersinger and Parsifal.  The most likely next Karajan purchase will be Sibelius.

[Mirror Image]

No.  To be perfectly honest, I've already got more Ring than I can really listen to.  (Of course, that's what he said before he decided to get Haitink's ring and finish buying Zagrosek's.  So don't expect me to fetch that in any time soon).  (At the moment, the listen to pile includes one Walkure, one Siegfried, one Gotterdammerung on CD, and one Lohengrin and one Tristan and three installments of Levine's Ring on DVD.)
And I do want to get that Solti Wagner box.....

But at the moment I'd be more inclined to go after some of his other Wagner, including Meistersinger and Parsifal.  The most likely next Karajan purchase will be Sibelius.

Yikes. Sounds like you've got a lot to listen to. This should keep you busy for a month or two. But if you're ever in the market for another Ring, definitely consider Karajan's set.

[Scarpia]

Friends,  I have a confession to admit.

I am beginning to like Karajan.

A few months back,  I would have told you that he was over polished and over marketed and possibly over recorded.....

But then I got his Bruckner cycle, and liked it very much, especially the first three symphonies, which I usually don't.

And then I got his late Mozart symphonies, and liked it very much.

And now I'm listening to the concluding minutes of his Mahler Fifth, and it's a great performance!

This threatens to become my top pick for the Fifth. (The Sixth is en route to me from Presto, but that will take a couple of more weeks to get to me.)

The recording that Karajan did of the Bruckner 8th symphony with the Vienna Philharmonic just a few months before his death is one for the ages.  I generally favor Karajan's work from the 60's, but there are some things he did at the very end where he seemed to connect very directly with music that was most important to him. 

He also did a recording of Stravinsky's Jeu de Cartes in the 50's with the Philharmonia that is just marvelous.

[early grey]

 A not-infrequent Senior Moment led me to give the wrong link to my site . The correct link is

                             http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/vinyl.php

where you will find three Karajan recordings that I think are superior in their field, namely, La Mer, Mahler's 4th symphony and Prokoviev's 5th. All may be thought to have a gloss or sheen but this is not the same as sentimentality   and what superb orchestra, superbly recorded will not have a lustre.  Beethoven's 5th and Dvorak's 9th complete the selection.

[Lisztianwagner]

Friends,  I have a confession to admit.

I am beginning to like Karajan.

A few months back,  I would have told you that he was over polished and over marketed and possibly over recorded.....

But then I got his Bruckner cycle, and liked it very much, especially the first three symphonies, which I usually don't.

And then I got his late Mozart symphonies, and liked it very much.

And now I'm listening to the concluding minutes of his Mahler Fifth, and it's a great performance!

This threatens to become my top pick for the Fifth. (The Sixth is en route to me from Presto, but that will take a couple of more weeks to get to me.)

How wonderful, I'm very pleased you've been enjoyng Karajan more, Jeffrey! I agree with John, Karajan's Ring is a masterpiece, absolutely worth getting.

[Lilas Pastia]

I listened to Mendelssohn's symphonies 3 and 4 under Peter Maag, and sensing that *something* was missing I put Karajan's recording, a long time favourite. it came across much as I expected: powerful, sleek, suitably  propulsive  yet attentive to much insrumental detail and the right balances. Overall it was very satisfying, but in a more generalized way than Maag's more idiosyncratic readings. It's hard to think of more evocative, brooding, exultant readings. And yet I prefer the less perfect, more sharply pointed readings of Klemperer and Maag.

You can't have everything, but just about every Karajan recording of anything should be considered. And every once in a while he will capture the very soul and spirit of a piece of music.

[xochitl]

i like karajan's 80s beethoven waaay more than his other cycles 

[Scarpia]

It can be fun and enlightening to listen to Karajan's performance of something he supposedly not good at.  Today I listened to his recording of Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, recorded with Berlin in 1969

[asin]B000056TKH[/asin]

You won't often see this listed as anyone's favorite recording of the piece (mine is probably the Dutoit/Montreal) but this recording is unique.  There is less emphasis on the angular counterpoint and antiphonal string effects, and more emphasis on the sonorities of the string orchestra.  There is a sensuousness in the string sound that is quite unique (the climax towards the end of the slow first movement is simply stunning).  In the fast sections, Karajan seems to be more interested in illuminating the various musical elements with variations in timbre, than maintaining a transparent texture or rhythm.  It is worth hearing, even if you don't consider it a definitive, or even idiomatic, performance of the music.

The same can be said for the flip side of this LP, Stravinsky's Apollo.  When the piece starts the performance sounds a bit distant and disengaged, and I'm tempted to think "this sounds to pretty for Stravinsky."  But at key moments, Karajan brings in the massed strings with a huge, all-encompassing sonority, and I think, "ahh, that's what he has in mind."

[Lisztianwagner]

Not the very best I've listened to, anyway I think Karajan's Bartók is very good, his recordings of the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta are great. The second one works particularly well in my opinion, that's an atmospheric and hauntingly beautiful performance; the orchestral playing is involving the inspiring, especially in the Andante tranquillo (thrilling climax and nice celesta arpeggios) and the Adagio (I like how the use of xylophone is handled and the timpani glissandi).

How many Bartók's works did Karajan record?

[Scarpia]

Not the very best I've listened to, anyway I think Karajan's Bartók is very good, his recordings of the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta are great. The second one works particularly well in my opinion, that's an atmospheric and hauntingly beautiful performance; the orchestral playing is involving the inspiring, especially in the Andante tranquillo (thrilling climax and nice celesta arpeggios) and the Adagio (I like how the use of xylophone is handled and the timpani glissandi).

How many Bartók's works did Karajan record?

Karajan didn't go beyond the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings Percussion and Celesta.  But he recorded them three times.  First in the early 50's with the Philharmonia, then the recordings for DG in the 60's, then again with Berlin for EMI in the 70's.  I'm only familiar with the DG recordings, but I think the early EMI set will be interesting.

Karajan's DG recording of the Concerto for orchestra is also interesting.  Bartok himself described the piece as a progression from darkness to light and happiness, with the final movement the culmination of joy.  But Karajan's performance of the finale strikes me as having a demonic character, particularly in the opening, perhaps suggesting the brutal frenzy of modern industrial life.  You could say he missed the point, but in an interesting way.

[KeithW]

Slightly off-topic, but there is an obituary in today's Guardian for Michel Schwalbe who was leader of the BPO in Karajan's heyday
http://gu.com/p/3bex7

[early grey]

................. and he (Michel Schwalbe) is the violin soloist in the Mahler 4 mentioned in my post 67 above.

[Lisztianwagner]

Karajan didn't go beyond the Concerto for Orchestra and Music for Strings Percussion and Celesta.  But he recorded them three times.  First in the early 50's with the Philharmonia, then the recordings for DG in the 60's, then again with Berlin for EMI in the 70's.  I'm only familiar with the DG recordings, but I think the early EMI set will be interesting.

Karajan's DG recording of the Concerto for orchestra is also interesting.  Bartok himself described the piece as a progression from darkness to light and happiness, with the final movement the culmination of joy.  But Karajan's performance of the finale strikes me as having a demonic character, particularly in the opening, perhaps suggesting the brutal frenzy of modern industrial life.  You could say he missed the point, but in an interesting way.

Thanks, Scarpia. It would have been great if Karajan had also recorded other Bartok's works, for example one of the Piano Concertos or the Dance Suite. I'm only familiar with the DG recordings too, but I would like to listen to the Philharmonia performances.
I agree with Bartok's description; as a matter of fact, in the last two movements a more vibrant, brighter tone is perceived, although the piece always keeps a thrilling, haunting atmosphere. Yes, Karajan's interpretation of the finale can't exactly be described as a culmination of joy, it is particularly rich of tension and overwhelming energy, especially showed by the crazy pace of the strings in the perpetuum mobile and by the use of percussion. But of course it's very interesting.