The Put On of the Century, or the Cage Centenary

[Parsifal]

FWIW, I have yet to dig properly into the collection of Gould's essays.

Maybe I'm being cranky about Gould, but after neglecting him for many years I've recently decided to give him a chance.  Listening to his set of Partitas, he's convinced me that I hate Bach.  I have to stop and switch to someone else to remind myself that I actually love Bach.  (Although, admittedly Gould is delightful in some of Bach's fugues, particularly short ones where his tediously uniform articulation does not have time to grate on the ears.)

[Sergeant Rock]

There are few things I find less interesting than Glen Gould's views on music.

I find Gould's views extremely interesting...even when I am violently disagreeing with him. Ref his Mozart (and Beethoven): the works he supposedly hated the most, he gave the most individual interpretations to. Fascinating. At least I find it so.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Maybe I'm being cranky about Gould, but after neglecting him for many years I've recently decided to give him a chance.  Listening to his set of Partitas, he's convinced me that I hate Bach.  I have to stop and switch to someone else to remind myself that I actually love Bach.  (Although, admittedly Gould is delightful in some of Bach's fugues, particularly short ones where his tediously uniform articulation does not have time to grate on the ears.)

Truth to tell, I am puzzled at the fervor for Gould.  At times, it reminds me of a cult.

I find Gould's views extremely interesting...even when I am violently disagreeing with him.

Yes, from the little I have read so far, Sarge, I think I am with you.

[Sergeant Rock]

Truth to tell, I am puzzled at the fervor for Gould.  At times, it reminds me of a cult.

So far, the Gould Cult (of which I'm a member) has not asked us to drink Kool-Aid. If they do, it might just make me reconsider my allegiance 

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Funny, though, Sarge: you don't act like a member of a cult  0:)

[Sergeant Rock]

Funny, though, Sarge: you don't act like a member of a cult  0:)

I gave up proselytizing years ago. A fool's game. I've become a Gouldian hermit 

Sarge

[Sammy]

Maybe I'm being cranky about Gould, but after neglecting him for many years I've recently decided to give him a chance.  Listening to his set of Partitas, he's convinced me that I hate Bach.

That surprises me.  I find his recording of the Partitas absolutely stunning, especially No. 4.  The only other piano set I'd put at Gould's level comes from Craig Sheppard.

[Parsifal]

That surprises me.  I find his recording of the Partitas absolutely stunning, especially No. 4.  The only other piano set I'd put at Gould's level comes from Craig Sheppard.

I enjoyed some of the initial movements, particularly where there was counterpoint, but I found the dances did not dance.

[Sammy]

I enjoyed some of the initial movements, particularly where there was counterpoint, but I found the dances did not dance.

Okay.  I'm not a big fan of dancing or humor in classical music, but I am a big fan of giving equal weight to each musical line; this is where Gould is astounding.

[Parsifal]

That surprises me.  I find his recording of the Partitas absolutely stunning, especially No. 4.  The only other piano set I'd put at Gould's level comes from Craig Sheppard.

For the Partitas, I still have a soft spot for Schiff's Decca recording, which was the first I heard of that music. I also like Hewitt and Perahia.  How would you characterize Sheppard's style?

[Parsifal]

Okay.  I'm not a big fan of dancing or humor in classical music, but I am a big fan of giving equal weight to each musical line; this is where Gould is astounding.

They are dances, after all.     I don't fault Gould for giving equal weight to each musical line, perhaps I fault him for giving equal weight to each note.  Astounding, I agree with, fully. 

[Silk]

Only two of those statements are fact.  The last, is a tendentious determination.

That is all.

(No . . . not quite all.  The last being of its nature non-fact, it is apt to cast the very first statement as tendentious determination, as well, n'est-ce pas?)

And your response is pseudo intellectual cant.  Sorry, I don't speak French.  Does that make you feel more superior now?

[Silk]

I disagree. In my experience, this is not what happens at all. In my experience, "others" back are already up before the conversation even starts.

I also don't see a lot of proselytizing. I think that's a chimera. What I do see is very strong reactions to anyone who enjoys, appreciates, understands Cage's music. One only has to express a liking for it for a half a dozen people to instantly jump in with the "you're trying to ram it down our throats" cry. I ain't buyin' it. People who like Cage are, by and large, just not the ramming type. I think there's a lot of ramming, but it ain't from the Cage fans by any means.

What I do see from that group is reactions to people who dismiss Cage without cause (yeah, yeah, I know, they think they have a lot of cause--they don't), who use their personal dislike to perpetrate all sorts of rudenesses against Cage, against twentieth and twenty-first music generally, and against anyone who's crazy enough to report as actually liking the crap. That's what I see, and it ain't pretty. Nope.

There's an awful lot of aggression and anger in this posting.  Seems to me I've read all this before elsewhere.

[Parsifal]

There's an awful lot of aggression and anger in this posting.  Seems to me I've read all this before elsewhere.

There seems to be an awful of anger in your last two posts. 

I find myself in general agreement with Some Guy's post, although I am not a fan of Cage (actually have never heard a note that he has written).  The article at the beginning of the thread was extremely mean spirited, written by an academic dung-beatle of a composer who gets off by criticizing a composer who, to some extent, has changed the way people think about music.  I also find myself with much less patience towards people who want to tell you that the music you love is "noise" or somehow unworthy compared to people who are perhaps over-enthusiastic about advocating the music they love.

[some guy]

And your response is pseudo intellectual cant.  Sorry, I don't speak French.  Does that make you feel more superior now?

Two things. One, Karl is a bona fide* intellectual, who was just saying something logical. Nuttin' cant-like about it. Two, n'est-ce pas is a very common French phrase, used often enough in English for every English-speaker to know it well, as I am sure that you do.

If only you and I were at dinner right now. I could say "bon appetit" to you and see if you bit my head off for speaking French to you. rrrRRRAARrrrr.

*genuine ( )

[Silk]

Aggression again.  "Bite" your head off?  That would be a truly unpalatable experience.

What the hell is a "bona fide" intellectual doing wasting his/her time on a message-board?  (BTW:  most "intellectuals" don't have to resort to cant!  Unless, of course....).  Surely there are 'peers' in academe which would satisfy intellectual needs!!  Unless, of course,.....

It seems there are many "unless, of course" individuals who frequent message-boards.  God spare us from intellectuals who don't have enough to do, for whatever reason.  Nothing slips through their nets.  Ever vigilant to write the wrongs of this world, they don't mind pulling rank to correct the 'opinions' of others.

Sigh.

[Sammy]

For the Partitas, I still have a soft spot for Schiff's Decca recording, which was the first I heard of that music. I also like Hewitt and Perahia.  How would you characterize Sheppard's style?

I consider his style very similar to Gould's, but without the grunting that some folks hate and with much better sound quality.

[Parsifal]

I consider his style very similar to Gould's, but without the grunting that some folks hate and with much better sound quality.

I listened to some excerpts of his WTC on his own web site.  He does have a clarity of execution in the fugues which is Gouldesq.  But I started with the C-major prelude from WTC I.  Gould famously plays every note in the arpeggiated chords as an individual, staccato plunk, but Sheppard plays it like a human being would play it.  So, I'd say Sheppard lacks Gould's deranged eccentricity.  From what I have heard, I like Sheppard a lot.

[Karl Henning]

And your response is pseudo intellectual cant.  Sorry, I don't speak French.  Does that make you feel more superior now?

My post addressed the content. Yours evades the point, to luxuriate in ad hominem. Do you feel you've "won"?

[Karl Henning]

Two things. One, Karl is a bona fide* intellectual, who was just saying something logical. Nuttin' cant-like about it.

You are kind, sieur, and beyond my desert.  In this thread particularly, I suppose, if a preference for discussing ideas over personal remark gives an intellectual impression, I suppose I oughtn't be surprised, though I cannot claim any signal merit.