Beethoven Violin Sonatas

[Bunny]

As far as I know, the Fleezanis/Huvé set is actually hybrid.  Her Storioni violin has been rebuilt for modern play.  However she does use a period bow and bowing techniques for the set.  I don't know if she retrung the violin with gut.  The sound is not her usual tone, fwiw.

Another HIP cd: The cd of Andreas Staier and Daniel Sepec doing the Op. 23 and 30 - no. 2.  The violin Sepec uses is one that has been documented as belonging to Beethoven.  This is probably the best HIP recording of any of the sonatas I've heard.



I also have the Argerich/Kremer, but for the Kreutzer, her recording with Itzhak Perlman is a lot more exciting.  It also includes one of the greatest Franck sonatas as well.  For other non hip sets: Maria João Pires and Agustin Dumay and Petr Messiereur (leader of the Talich Quartet) and Stanislas Bogunia also have complete sets.  The Messiereur/Bogunia set picked up a Choc Award, and is really a budget winner.

[Bunny]

No problem.  My not enjoying Frank's Mozart doesn't lead me to assume I wouldn't care for her Beethoven.

Concerning HIP recordings other than the Verney, I know of an Amon Ra disc and another on the Folger Consort label.

While the Frank Beethoven is very good, the sound quality is not.  It may not interfere with your enjoyment, but I kept wishing it were better.

[Steve]

I just purchased the Kremer set a few weeks ago, and I would have to reccommend it quite highly.

[George]

I just purchased the Kremer set a few weeks ago, and I would have to reccommend it quite highly.

What do you think of his tone on that set?

[Bunny]

What do you think of his tone on that set?

By tone do you mean sound quality or some other quality -- partnership, tone of instruments, etc. ?

[Steve]

What do you think of his tone on that set?

Speaking of the Beethoven, the performances are quite wonderful. His tone is quite vivid, with excellent articulation, and perfect timing. The sound is just delightful.

[Don]

Another HIP cd: The cd of Andreas Staier and Daniel Sepec doing the Op. 23 and 30 - no. 2.  The violin Sepec uses is one that has been documented as belonging to Beethoven.  This is probably the best HIP recording of any of the sonatas I've heard.

I've got this one and totally agree.  Although not pertinent, I also love the cover.

[Bunny]

I've got this one and totally agree.  Although not pertinent, I also love the cover.

Don, I believe that the cover is a picture of a "life mask" made of the composer, or rather a sculpture from one of the life masks.  It certainly captures the quality of his skin which was unfashionably dark and, apparently, what was then called spotty.

[George]

By tone do you mean sound quality or some other quality -- partnership, tone of instruments, etc. ?

I meant the tone of Kremer's violin. I found it to be thin. 

[Bunny]

I meant the tone of Kremer's violin. I found it to be thin. 

You are not alone!  I've heard that same complaint a number of times about Kremer's sound.  That's probably why I keep looking for another set of the sonatas.  However, the play is wonderful and the partnership is very well balanced as well.  You should try and hear the Argerich/Perlman recording; nothing to complain about there wrt tone.   The Francescatti/Casadesus also has great tone.  The Messiereur/Bogunia is also characterized by a very sweet toned violin; I've gotten very fond of that set.

[Steve]

I meant the tone of Kremer's violin. I found it to be thin. 

I've just now been listening to Sonata No. 5 in F Major, op. 24, to great pleasure and delight. Is it possible that we have different recordings of these sonatas? My recording is part of a 8-CD DG Set containing the works of Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, and others. Perhaps the Beethoven sonatas are not the same found on your set. I find the tone rather full, and rich, and certainly not thin. These must be different recorgins.  

[George]

I've just now been listening to Sonata No. 5 in F Major, op. 24, to great pleasure and delight. Is it possible that we have different recordings of these sonatas? My recording is part of a 8-CD DG Set containing the works of Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, and others. Perhaps the Beethoven sonatas are not the same found on your set. I find the tone rather full, and rich, and certainly not thin. These must be different recorgins. 

No, we just have different ears. 

I have the same that you are referring to above.

[George]

You are not alone!  I've heard that same complaint a number of times about Kremer's sound. 

This is good news, seems as if I am improving, at least in my ability to hear recordings and accurately describe what I perceive. My first reaction when I heard these performances was not good, but then I thought "what do I know about violin tone?" I guess I know something...  

[Michel]

I only have Oborin/Oistrak, which is apparently a lot better than Oistrakh others Violin Sonatas on record with a pianist I can't remember.

I would definately try Serkin/Busch - I think Serkin has lots to say about Beethoven. His Piano Sonatas are bloody fabulous.

[dirkronk]

Well darn, donwyn. Sorry to hear about the Kagan/Richter on Live Classics. I wonder if this has the same performance (of #4 & #5) as on the EMI 2-CD set of Mozart/Beethoven violin sonatas that I just recently got but haven't yet listened to.

OK, my curiosity got the best of me. I dug out the EMI set and put on the Beethoven numbers (again, we're talking 4 & 5 only). According to the notes, these performances were given in concert in 1976 in Munich and apparently recorded by EMI engineers (and even if not, they're clear that EMI holds the copyright). To my ears--and this is in listening over headphones--the sound seems good if not great, with balance fairly equal between violin and piano...even in places sounding as if the piano is given a slightly greater emphasis, but not annoyingly so. Regardless, the sonics are clean and more than listenable. I'll take the discs home later this week to check them out on serious speakers; I wouldn't make critical judgment on what I can hear on my office boombox.

This makes me even more curious to hear the Live Classics version for comparison. donwyn has already said that he no longer has the disc, but does anyone else here have it? And can you tell me what numbers are played and what information is given about dates?

Oh...and yes, I enjoyed the performances. In fact, I think I'll go back for another listen to #4 right now.


Dirk

[Bunny]

I've just now been listening to Sonata No. 5 in F Major, op. 24, to great pleasure and delight. Is it possible that we have different recordings of these sonatas? My recording is part of a 8-CD DG Set containing the works of Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms, and others. Perhaps the Beethoven sonatas are not the same found on your set. I find the tone rather full, and rich, and certainly not thin. These must be different recorgins. 

Kremer is often criticized as not having a big enough sound compared with others such as Vengerov.  Heifetz was sometimes criticized for the same reason.  It's all really a matter of taste. 

This is good news, seems as if I am improving, at least in my ability to hear recordings and accurately describe what I perceive. My first reaction when I heard these performances was not good, but then I thought "what do I know about violin tone?" I guess I know something...  

George, the performances are as good as it gets in that set.  There is no way anyone could say that either Argerich or Kremer was not playing these works beautifully.  The criticism is purely one that is made about the tone of Kremer's violin.  It's not a big, round, full sound like Mutter's or Vengerov's.  Similar criticism was leveled at Heifetz on occasion, but I doubt that any of us would say that he was not playing brilliantly despite that.  Because I love HIP performance, the lighter tone of Kremer's violin doesn't put me off at all, it also doesn't stop me from enjoying these works as done by Perlman (with Ashkenazy or Argerich) or Francescatti, or Schröder for that matter.

[Gurn Blanston]

On modern instruments, Kremer/Argerich are my favorites on all counts, from the sound to the playing, the tempi, everything. Other than the odd disk or two by others I really don't care to have another non-HIP cycle, these are satisfactory on all counts.

[George]

George, the performances are as good as it gets in that set.  There is no way anyone could say that either Argerich or Kremer was not playing these works beautifully.  The criticism is purely one that is made about the tone of Kremer's violin.  It's not a big, round, full sound like Mutter's or Vengerov's.  Similar criticism was leveled at Heifetz on occasion, but I doubt that any of us would say that he was not playing brilliantly despite that.  Because I love HIP performance, the lighter tone of Kremer's violin doesn't put me off at all, it also doesn't stop me from enjoying these works as done by Perlman (with Ashkenazy or Argerich) or Francescatti, or Schröder for that matter.

I keep forgetting to be more careful about what I say when it comes to this stuff. When I say that my first reaction to these performances wasn't good, I meant with respect to the violin's tone only. I am not commenting on the performances, but rather the sound that Kremer produces with his instrument. However, the tone is an essential ingredient IMO. If I don't like it, it doesn't matter if the performance is greatest ever, it will be difficult for me to enjoy the performance if I don't like the tone.

[Don]

Kremer is often criticized as not having a big enough sound compared with others such as Vengerov.  Heifetz was sometimes criticized for the same reason.  It's all really a matter of taste. 

George, the performances are as good as it gets in that set.  There is no way anyone could say that either Argerich or Kremer was not playing these works beautifully.  The criticism is purely one that is made about the tone of Kremer's violin.  It's not a big, round, full sound like Mutter's or Vengerov's.  Similar criticism was leveled at Heifetz on occasion, but I doubt that any of us would say that he was not playing brilliantly despite that.  Because I love HIP performance, the lighter tone of Kremer's violin doesn't put me off at all, it also doesn't stop me from enjoying these works as done by Perlman (with Ashkenazy or Argerich) or Francescatti, or Schröder for that matter.

I"d say that Vengerov tends to have a "thick" tone that I don't find advantageous for the music of composers such as Mozart.

[Bunny]

I keep forgetting to be more careful about what I say when it comes to this stuff. When I say that my first reaction to these performances wasn't good, I meant with respect to the violin's tone only. I am not commenting on the performances, but rather the sound that Kremer produces with his instrument. However, the tone is an essential ingredient IMO. If I don't like it, it doesn't matter if the performance is greatest ever, it will be difficult for me to enjoy the performance if I don't like the tone.

I feel the same way about the sound quality.  When ever I listen to a historic recording where the sound is really "historic" it just annoys me no end.  I'm always trying to decide whether the performance was really one of the greats or whether it was merely something that was recorded in such a manner that it was so much better than the other things available at the time. 

I"d say that Vengerov tends to have a "thick" tone that I don't find advantageous for the music of composers such as Mozart.

I always think "thick as a brick" when I hear that word and whatever it is, Vengerov's fiddling isn't brick-like.  However, I know what you are trying to describe*; for some reason I always think that Vengerov can't do Mozart or Beethoven because he has too much vibrato, or he's too Russian and not classical enough, or his sound is too overpowering.  I wonder if his sound would really overpower the music and the accompaniment the way I imagine it would.  Certainly I can't see him ever playing in an ensemble the way Repin does occasionally and it's probably an unfounded prejudice.

For some reason I just thought of marshmallow trying to imagine your "thick" tone. hehe.