Beethoven Symphonies Cycle: Which is your #1 pick?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Not sure how you can get the winds to play in a particular temperament as they are not as easily tunable as strings and piano. My feeling is you don't see recordings of Beethoven symphonies in unequal temperament because someone tried it, find that it sounds pretty awful, and ditched the idea before they bankrupt themselves.

[amw]

Modern wind instruments aren't equal tempered because true equal temperament is impossible except on keyboard instruments. Generally they have compromise tunings: sacrificing the thirds for pure octaves (eg flutes) or sacrificing the octaves for pure fifths (eg clarinets). Adjustments always have to be made with embouchure & sometimes fiddling with the instrument to get it in tune. Horns & trumpets & tubas also require constant embouchure adjustment because they are "naturally" in pythagorean just intonation. Trombones, obviously, can do whatever, since they have slides.

Every recording of Beethoven symphonies uses unequal temperament, except for the ones recorded on a piano. Players attempt to stick relatively close to equal temperament, so that it's possible to do all the modulations and chromaticism Beethoven called for, but don't attempt to play in pure equal temperament because that would honestly sound terrible. (Also: any recording using historical wind instruments uses unequal temperament because historical wind instruments were built in unequal temperament derived from a system of 55 equal divisions of the octave, with some semitones being narrower than others.)

[amw]

Among existing sets of Beethoven symphonies Krivine & Immerseel make this late 18th/early 19th century version of "equal temperament" with alternating semitones of 5/55 and 4/55 particularly audible, I think. See how out of tune these sound to you:

https://www.youtube.com/v/T2wm4I0nh5s
https://www.youtube.com/v/fcOzWEeSZT8

[PerfectWagnerite]

Sounds pretty good - about as good as HIP goes.

I am not sure why it is so difficult to reconstruct what instruments, how they were tuned, or what the playing style was during Beethoven's time. That was 200 yrs ago not 2000 years ago and it was Vienna and LVB was a major composer. You would think everything would be documented in painstaking detail.

[amw]

The instruments & the tuning are well documented and many of them still exist. The playing style has to be reconstructed from circumstantial evidence, since people rarely sit down and actually document the playing style of their own time in detail; they're much more likely to write news articles decrying the state of modern performance and contrasting it to the golden age of the 1780s, or lauding the newest orchestra/conductor/soloist who is presenting something radically new and different from the dreadful playing style of the 1780s. But overall it's not too hard to pick up the typical features of performance practice during Beethoven's time, which is why I've seen some critics complain about HIP performances all sounding the same.

Certain things obviously have not been reconstructed, e.g., Beethoven's deafness led him to miss fistfuls of notes when performing or play too quietly to be heard, or loudly enough to rattle the keys of the instrument, whereas modern pianists do not follow his example. Audiences no longer talk, eat, etc during concerts (or at least not as loudly). Concerts last two hours instead of five. Orchestras generally rehearse compositions before playing them. We usually do not interrupt Beethoven's 5th between the second and third movements for Rihanna to come onstage and perform her latest single, or the first violinist to play a potpourri of his own composition on themes from a recent film score. All of this would have been standard performance practice in the early nineteenth century.

[Que]

I have lots of good sets.  But in the past few years, lots of HIP and OIP groups have recorded the nine, and each has been hailed by a few as revolutionary and revelatory and the one to get.  To me, though, only one of them has actually fulfilled that promise--the one from Jos van Immerseel and Anima Eterna on the Zig Zag label, distributed by Harmonia Mundi.

Immerseel is great, but don't overlook Frans Brüggen's 1st cycle on Philips, now reissued on Universal with a glorious Prometheus and a classic version of the violin concerto with Zehetmair:

New HIP cycles I stil have to look into are Bruno Weil (well, not completely new) and Martin Haselböck with the Wiener Akademie.

Q

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

The instruments & the tuning are well documented and many of them still exist. The playing style has to be reconstructed from circumstantial evidence, since people rarely sit down and actually document the playing style of their own time in detail; they're much more likely to write news articles decrying the state of modern performance and contrasting it to the golden age of the 1780s, or lauding the newest orchestra/conductor/soloist who is presenting something radically new and different from the dreadful playing style of the 1780s. But overall it's not too hard to pick up the typical features of performance practice during Beethoven's time, which is why I've seen some critics complain about HIP performances all sounding the same.

Certain things obviously have not been reconstructed, e.g., Beethoven's deafness led him to miss fistfuls of notes when performing or play too quietly to be heard, or loudly enough to rattle the keys of the instrument, whereas modern pianists do not follow his example. Audiences no longer talk, eat, etc during concerts (or at least not as loudly). Concerts last two hours instead of five. Orchestras generally rehearse compositions before playing them. We usually do not interrupt Beethoven's 5th between the second and third movements for Rihanna to come onstage and perform her latest single, or the first violinist to play a potpourri of his own composition on themes from a recent film score. All of this would have been standard performance practice in the early nineteenth century.

Some other things I rarely hear reconstructed in these recordings are the expressive use of orchestral and solo vibrato (and all the different gradations of slight to heavy, slow to quick vibrato), fluctuations/modifications of tempo, portamento and rubato. Norrington is the only conductor who seems to take much notice of orchestra size, and his Stuttgart recordings of Beethoven use quadruple winds and brass to complement a full string section, making it sound wonderfully rich, full and perfect for large, modern concert halls. I guess these things can be more easily appreciated in modern performance contexts as we don't have to re-invent the audience or concert programmes so much.

Actually, if anyone has any recommendations on historically informed tempo and rubato/vibrato/tempo/portamento, I would be extremely interested to hear it.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Actually, if anyone has any recommendations on historically informed tempo and rubato/vibrato/tempo/portamento, I would be extremely interested to hear it.

I would be too. Or maybe if someone can recommend which performance would be the closest to LVB's time tha twould be greate also.

But overall it's not too hard to pick up the typical features of performance practice during Beethoven's time, which is why I've seen some critics complain about HIP performances all sounding the same.

Certain things obviously have not been reconstructed, e.g., Beethoven's deafness led him to miss fistfuls of notes when performing or play too quietly to be heard, or loudly enough to rattle the keys of the instrument, whereas modern pianists do not follow his example. Audiences no longer talk, eat, etc during concerts (or at least not as loudly). Concerts last two hours instead of five. Orchestras generally rehearse compositions before playing them. We usually do not interrupt Beethoven's 5th between the second and third movements for Rihanna to come onstage and perform her latest single, or the first violinist to play a potpourri of his own composition on themes from a recent film score. All of this would have been standard performance practice in the early nineteenth century.

I don't know whether they all sound the same but a lot of them do: for example in the Immerseel clip the most dominant instrument is the timpani which I seriously doubt is the balance that LVB intended.

Brueggen was mentioned - it is an interesting cycle in that the playing as far as tempo, dynamics and expressiveness are closer to an old school sort of interpretation rather than the more cool and academic reading of some HIP ensembles (compared to say Hogwood/AAM).

[Marc]

Immerseel is great, but don't overlook Frans Brüggen's 1st cycle on Philips, now reissued on Universal with a glorious Prometheus and a classic version of the violin concerto with Zehetmair [...]

You beat me to it!

[Marc]

I would be too. Or maybe if someone can recommend which performance would be the closest to LVB's time tha twould be greate also.
I don't know whether they all sound the same but a lot of them do: for example in the Immerseel clip the most dominant instrument is the timpani which I seriously doubt is the balance that LVB intended.

Brueggen was mentioned - it is an interesting cycle in that the playing as far as tempo, dynamics and expressiveness are closer to an old school sort of interpretation rather than the more cool and academic reading of some HIP ensembles (compared to say Hogwood/AAM).

Brüggen delivers more charm and nobility, that's for sure.
Only the 9th is not among my favourites, also caused by an out-of-shape Anthony Rolfe Johnson.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Brüggen delivers more charm and nobility, that's for sure.
Only the 9th is not among my favourites, also caused by an out-of-shape Anthony Rolfe Johnson.

Well I am not going to beat on him but if there is ever a personification of the term "second-rate oratorio singer" that would be him. He is also on the Gardiner and Hogwood sets, they must love him. For whatever reason light voice is synonomous with HIP.

[Judith]

Have three sets.

Rattle. Find there is something missing with his recordings

Harnoncourt.  Some lovely recordings

Muti. Love it.

[Karl Henning]

Muti. Love it.

Phila.?

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Phila.?

Indeed. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html)

Gorgeously homogenized Beethoven with a hint of saturated gloss.

[Karl Henning]

Indeed. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html)

Gorgeously homogenized Beethoven with a hint of saturated gloss.

Cool. I do have the Muti/Phila. Berlioz Roméo et Juliette, which is exquisite.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Cool. I do have the Muti/Phila. Berlioz Roméo et Juliette, which is exquisite.

It wasn't necessarily meant as a compliment, but it evidently has its own kind of appeal. 

[Karl Henning]

[Marc]

Well I am not going to beat on him but if there is ever a personification of the term "second-rate oratorio singer" that would be him. He is also on the Gardiner and Hogwood sets, they must love him. For whatever reason light voice is synonomous with HIP.

To me, Rolfe Johnson was a hit or a miss. My disliking in this particular recording wasn't caused by the 'lightness' of his voice, though. When I listen to his "Froh, wie seine Sonnen..." it feels as if he wasn't able to control his voice. Almost any other 'light' voice could have done a better job.

I.c. his voice in other performances: of the HIP voices (f.i. in Bach) I always considered him as one of the 'lesser light' tenors. He most certainly could produce plenty of volume. I heard him live once or twice in Bach, and he was in good shape, loud and clear. His German pronouncation wasn't always perfect, but he showed great understanding of the lyrics. He was also good as Evangelist in Bach's passions (Gardiner and Harnoncourt), and I still like his performance of Idomeneo in Mozart's opera (Gardiner). From what I remember, his interpretation of Britten's Peter Grimes (Haitink) wasn't all that bad, either. But I also recall a few radio broadcasts where he, IMHO, was 'overshouting' (does this word exist?) and less in control.

I felt sad when, around 2000, I heard he suffered from Alzheimer and had to stop his career. He had to carry the Alzheimer burden for 10 years before he died.

Apologies for getting off-topic.

(I still like Brüggen I. )

[czgirb]

What about a set from Herreweghe
it seems the set was just mentioned in #178 only ...
please give an opinion regarding the set
thank you

[amw]

As I implied in #178 I think it's good. Somewhat tempered by an aesthetic "coolness" and unwillingness to dig too deep, in fantastic sound quality. Weirdly refreshing to listen to, perhaps because so many other Beethoven cycles play the fortes really loud either for visceral excitement or nobility and grandeur, whereas the Flemish players are....restrained? undemonstrative? which allows you to hear not just the details of Beethoven's not particularly interesting orchestration but also more importantly changes the expressive character of some of the movements. Modern instruments though.

No idea if anyone has other opinions & I am fairly easy to please in general