Beethoven Symphonies Cycle: Which is your #1 pick?

[Karl Henning]

Hi Karl - thanks for your response and comment that you presumably 'culled out' Zinman?  From reviewing this thread, reading the replies to my post, and looking on Amazon and the Fanfare Archive, I've come up w/ the 5 possibilities shown below (probably a Zinman replacement for me) - despite the thread's positive responses to HvK's '63 set, George convinced me to look for better sound (which I favor greatly) - one question about Lenny - assume the Vienna recordings are the 'good' ones (vs. his older ones w/ the New Yorkers)?  The back cover states these are 'live performances' - what is the level of audience noise/applause/etc.?  Sorry, but an intolerable issue for me.  Thanks again all for your comments and help.  Dave

Dave, I just never found the Zinman, I'm not familiar with the Lenny/Vienna set.

[SonicMan46]

Dave, I just never found the Zinman, I'm not familiar with the Lenny/Vienna set.

Sorry Karl - did not notice that you put the New Yorkers after Lenny - reading the Fanfare reviews, his later Vienna performances seem to trump the earlier recordings - hopefully others will 'chime in' about 'audience participation' in the Vienna recordings.  Dave

[Karl Henning]

Sorry Karl - did not notice that you put the New Yorkers after Lenny - reading the Fanfare reviews, his later Vienna performances seem to trump the the earlier recordings - hopefully others will 'chime in' about 'audience participation' in the Vienna recordings.  Dave

No worries, friend!

[André]

The Vienna performances from Bernstein are excellent, Dave. In some movements he can be a tad heavy (5:I for example is hardly con brio), but I still like the results. You won't hear a peep from the audience, BTW.

Apart from an uneven 9th, Monteux with the LSO/WP absolutely smokes.

[Jo498]

I think Zinman was interesting when it came out in the late 1990s but I find it overall rather one dimensional (have 1-4,9). My main point was, however, that Zinman and Mackerras are basically HIPish with modern instruments, so all of your 6 but Cluytens take a broadly speaking HIP approach.

I have not checked Bernstein's recently but I think there is almost no audience noise. Virtually? all his lateish DG recordings from ca. 1980 on were from live concerts. Many of them were also on video/Laserdisc and I saw quite a few of them on German TV in the late 1980s as a teenager. The Beethoven is in now way as slow and mannered as some of Bernstein's other late recordings but it is slower than the 1960s CBS.

Harnoncourt is also live but IIRC without intrusions and usually good sound. It's of course also HIP with modern instruments (except trumpets) but rather individual as well.

Karajan and Wand are good but also more on the fast/straight side, certainly worthwhile but probably not such a strong contrast to what you have.

[Biffo]

You can listen to the Savall performances on Spotify - and other streaming devices no doubt. I suggest you give a thorough listen to at least a couple of the symphonies - not just snippets. My gall with his approach is that he transforms just about everything into a concerto for timpani. Striking and exciting at first but wearying over the long run. Personally I've become allergic to his approach as it amounts to a distortion for effect's sake. Others may disagree of course.

I listened to No 6 from the Savall cycle yesterday. The timpani in the Storm made me jump but otherwise I didn't find them intrusive. What I didn't enjoy was the wiry sound of the strings - I don't remember them being so bad in the first batch of symphonies, will have to go back and check. I enjoyed the interpretation but not the string sound. I will press on with No 7 tomorrow.

[SonicMan46]

You can listen to the Savall performances on Spotify - and other streaming devices no doubt. I suggest you give a thorough listen to at least a couple of the symphonies - not just snippets. My gall with his approach is that he transforms just about everything into a concerto for timpani......

I think Zinman was interesting when it came out in the late 1990s but I find it overall rather one dimensional (have 1-4,9). My main point was, however, that Zinman and Mackerras are basically HIPish with modern instruments, so all of your 6 but Cluytens take a broadly speaking HIP approach.

I have not checked Bernstein's recently but I think there is almost no audience noise.........

Harnoncourt is also live but IIRC without intrusions and usually good sound. It's of course also HIP with modern instruments (except trumpets) but rather individual as well.

Karajan and Wand are good but also more on the fast/straight side, certainly worthwhile but probably not such a strong contrast to what you have.

I listened to No 6 from the Savall cycle yesterday. The timpani in the Storm made me jump but otherwise I didn't find them intrusive. What I didn't enjoy was the wiry sound of the strings - I don't remember them being so bad in the first batch of symphonies, will have to go back and check. I enjoyed the interpretation but not the string sound. I will press on with No 7 tomorrow.

Thanks All for the additional comments - I did re-listen to Savall on Nos. 1-5 completely on Spotify and must agree w/ the 'tympani comments' - I love that section of the orchestra but at times just overbearing (e.g. last movement of No. 3 & a lot of No. 5) - thus will not add Jordi to my collection, quite happy w/ Gardiner and Immerseel. 

Well, what attracted me to Mackerras (and Zinman) was the use of modern instruments but w/ period practices, so not an issue.  However, I'll start reviewing some of the ones mentioned and those in my previous post and do some more Spotify previewing.  Thanks again!  Dave

[Karl Henning]

Thanks All for the additional comments - I did re-listen to Savall on Nos. 1-5 completely on Spotify and must agree w/ the 'tympani comments' - I love that section of the orchestra but at times just overbearing (e.g. last movement of No. 3 & a lot of No. 5) - thus will not add Jordi to my collection, quite happy w/ Gardiner and Immerseel.

There had to have been a happy medium between "timpani in your face" and "do you hear that low rumble?"

[SonicMan46]

There had to have been a happy medium between "timpani in your face" and "do you hear that low rumble?"

Hi Karl - LOL!    For me, Savall is not a choice for 'repeated listening' - probably in 1985 or so, I bought Telarc's CD of the 1812 Overture - and when the REAL cannons were exploded (in bold below), I could feel shock waves hit my body from the large passive radiators in my EV speakers which I still own (and had re-built); well, once was enough and bought another less jarring version.     Dave

The 1812 Overture, Telarc's all-time best-selling recording, is an audiophile's dream. The superb playing of the Cincinnati Pops under the baton of Erich Kunzel combined with Telarc's sound effects make this an unbeatable performance! The bells heard on this CD are those of the Emery Memorial Carillon, recreating the tumultuous clangor of church bells which Tchaikovsky envisioned. In order to capture the most authentic recording, three nineteenth-century cannons, owned and manned by the Fifth Virginia Regiment, were utilized, and to capture the perfect cannon sound, a total of twenty-four different charges with sixteen shots of varying sizes were exploded and recorded, as required in Tchaikovsky's score. (Amazon)

[Daverz]

I suppose I'd pick Kletzki with the partial Markevitch cycle on Philips and DG as a supplement.  But I don't listen to Beethoven cycles whole, I just pick and choose among them what to listen to as the mood strikes.  It was the 7th from the DG Steinberg cycle a few days ago.

[André]

There had to have been a happy medium between "timpani in your face" and "do you hear that low rumble?"

Brings to my mind 'the strange case of the missing timpani' in Decca's first recording of Don Giovanni under Solti. Despite a stellar cast and an otherwise superb playing from the London Philharmonic, the virtual absence of that orchestral section is deplorable. At best a very faint rumble hints at a passing subway train deep under the recording studio. The rest of the time they are inaudible. What were the engineers thinking ?

[Karl Henning]

I was the 7th from the DG Steinberg cycle a few days ago.

Must have been good. Pittsburgh or Boston?

[Daverz]

Must have been good. Pittsburgh or Boston?

Pittsburgh.  So far, I also really liked the 4.



Review at classicstoday (not by DH):

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/steinberg-pittsburghs-classic-beethoven-symphonies

[Karl Henning]

Pittsburgh.  So far, I also really liked the 4.



Review at classicstoday (not by DH):

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/steinberg-pittsburghs-classic-beethoven-symphonies

Sweet!

[SonicMan46]

Pittsburgh.  So far, I also really liked the 4.

 

Review at classicstoday (not by DH):

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/steinberg-pittsburghs-classic-beethoven-symphonies

Hi Dave - several posts of mine back, I showed 5 potential 'box replacements' - Lennie after reading a few reviews and not being a fan of his was out me; Harnoncourt had mixed reviews and listening to several of the Symphonies on Spotify left me unimpressed; Wand I've not yet had time to review or hear (believe a George recommendation).

So, the two left are Steinberg & Kletzki, both w/ old sound from the 1960s but remastered - I've attached reviews of both conductors - in the first quote below, the ClassicsToday reviewer complains about the sound - just curious in your listening if you had the same impression?  And as to the Kletzki, the AllMusic reviewer concludes w/ a near dismissal in my mind!  BUT, I'm currently listening on Kletzki on Spotify (on headphones and hearing no tape hiss at all - can't really agree w/ his remarks at the moment - will continue - of course the other question (for me) is do I want a 1960s recording vs one from this century or at least the 1990s?  Thanks all.  Dave

RE: Steinberg - However, the engineering emphasizes the upper frequencies, resulting in an over-bright, almost metallic sound. This effect varies depending on the speakers or headphones being used. (ClassicsToday)

RE: Kletzki - These analog versions don't compare well with the best contemporary digital recordings, and the sound of the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra is a bit too homogenized and at times too muddy in this remastering to make the music fully enjoyable. Although the instruments can be made out... some of their upper partials seem to have been eliminated in the reduction of tape hiss, and the ensemble's overall sound seems a little dulled in tone... Artistically, there is much to appreciate here, but this box set faces serious competition from later and better sounding alternatives. (AllMusic)

[George]

Wand I've not yet had time to review or hear (believe a George recommendation).

Correct!

It was originally recommended to me by M Forever, so you know it's a winner!

[SonicMan46]

Correct!

It was originally recommended to me by M Forever, so you know it's a winner!

Thanks George - I'm assuming that the two boxes shown below are the same recordings, listed as 1980s recordings on the back of one of the packages - will check Spotify and setup a Wand playlist.

BTW - for those interested in the Kletzki 1960s recordings, I've listened to Nos. 2 & 3 so far, will continue - on headphones, the sound and dynamics are excellent for 50+ year old tapes - Dave

 

[Daverz]

So, the two left are Steinberg & Kletzki, both w/ old sound from the 1960s but remastered - I've attached reviews of both conductors - in the first quote below, the ClassicsToday reviewer complains about the sound - just curious in your listening if you had the same impression?

I did not hear anything objectionable.  But these are from very old tapes, so you can't expect perfection.

And as to the Kletzki, the AllMusic reviewer concludes w/ a near dismissal in my mind! 

Then that reviewer can be dismissed.  Harumph!

[Todd]

As of March 2022, I would probably have to select the below sets.  I don't know if I could choose just one.  Maybe Karajan.  Or Schuricht.

Arturo Toscanini (NBC)
Carl Schuricht
Herbert von Karajan (70s)
Wyn Morris
Thomas Ades

[Biffo]

I have just listened to Symphony No 5 from the Steinberg DG cycle and find nothing to complain of sound-wise. The cycle was recorded by Command Classics on 35mm tape using the same studio and equipment as Mercury 'Living Presence'. The studio and equipment were bought up when Everest went bust.