Beethoven Symphonies Cycle: Which is your #1 pick?

[Brian]

the brass players did not seem very good (which is a major flaw in the Eroica).

The French horns are definitely balanced strangely - at times they are very prominent and exciting, but at other times they're timid and in hiding. Sarge would be alternately delighted and confused.

[Mookalafalas]

The Savall set is amazing, truly one of the most intelligently conducted and revolutionary-feeling sets of interpretations in years, and I hope that in a few years they will be able to return and record 6-9.

Absolutely. However, assuming Savall is interested (and why wouldn't he be?) you won't have to wait years.  That guy is a machine from heaven. His production rate is phenomenal, but he rarely reaches the classical era, time-wise. If he is determined to finish the cycle, it won't take him long. However, if he is already bored with "these radical kid" composers and drifts back to 14th century Paniagua type composers...well, maybe we'll never here the rest.

[staxomega]

Yes! 

And:







Q

Just curious why Bruggen and not Hogwood? I'd be interested in reading your take.

======

I stopped exploring new recordings sometime back (other than the Walter mono, being able to hear that all the way through after the recent Complete Columbia box) after it seemed everyone was going for period inspired tempi; for me if you're going to do that go all out with period instruments and an appropriately sized orchestra.

So my preferences go more towards the "gravitas" side of things, Szell being my overall favorite. These four in no particular order - Walter mono and stereo, Karajan 63, Wand/NDR. Followed by Hogwood and lastly a  Toscanini 1939 broadcast. Still brisk tempos on that but in general not like those 50s RCA recordings.

I don't know Jochum all that well but I've read he tended to have some elasticity and used some rubato ala Furtwangler so I plan to explore these. But I'm becoming less and less tolerant of poor sound (particularly EMI) as I get older and my hifi evolves.

[JBS]

It's been a long time since I listened to Hogwood's set. I remember it as having no flaws but also no virtues. I just pulled it out to give it a fresh listen, and will report.

The Bruggen set includes a very good performance of the VC, although strictly speaking that's not relevant to your question.

[Ras]

Absolutely. However, assuming Savall is interested (and why wouldn't he be?) you won't have to wait years.  That guy is a machine from heaven. His production rate is phenomenal, but he rarely reaches the classical era, time-wise. If he is determined to finish the cycle, it won't take him long. However, if he is already bored with "these radical kid" composers and drifts back to 14th century Paniagua type composers...well, maybe we'll never here the rest.

On the back of the Savall  CD it says "complete symphonies vol. 1". But I have not seen any information about when vol. 2 is coming out.

[Jo498]

Brüggen is certainly among the more flexible/elastic/weightier of HIP but of course still quite different from traditional/historical. The violin concerto with Zehetmair is probably my favorite recording of that piece.

[Que]

Just curious why Bruggen and not Hogwood? I'd be interested in reading your take.

I think Brüggen has more gravitas than the - in my mind - more lighter, "Mozartian" Hogwood.

I don't know Jochum all that well but I've read he tended to have some elasticity and used some rubato ala Furtwangler so I plan to explore these. But I'm becoming less and less tolerant of poor sound (particularly EMI) as I get older and my hifi evolves.

The sound of Jochum in the Concertgebouw is excellent. 

Q

[Brian]

On the back of the Savall  CD it says "complete symphonies vol. 1". But I have not seen any information about when vol. 2 is coming out.

They need to convene and record them after the pandemic ends. They are doing a series of weeklong sessions, two weeks per Symphony j think, and the pandemic stopped them after 5. There's a note about it in the booklet.

[JBS]

It's been a long time since I listened to Hogwood's set. I remember it as having no flaws but also no virtues. I just pulled it out to give it a fresh listen, and will report.

The Bruggen set includes a very good performance of the VC, although strictly speaking that's not relevant to your question.

Reporting back after the promised listen, I find Hogwood to be a little better than I remember, but not enough to change my basic opinion. Que's term "Mozartian" is appropriate.

[Brian]

I tried the new WDR Janowski Eroica on streaming and didn't love it. Janowski rejects some of the best ideas of HIP - the timpanist uses the romantic fuzz ball sticks and is poorly balanced so it's not always audible (I love that moment in the first movement's recap where the timpanist just blasts out a drum roll that wasn't in the original exposition; here it's very underplayed). The brass is also somewhat reticent; it's interesting, but also odd, to listen to some of the biggest climaxes and hear the clarinets in full but not the horns. The pacing is old-school normal. The string playing is really the emphasis here, and the WDR Symphony is good, but it's not exactly got the richness of the more HIP-savvy Chailly in Leipzig or the even more romantic Barenboim in East Berlin. Overall, I guess the whole thing was just...middle.

Will be curious to see how other people react and find out if the problem is my ears.

[staxomega]

I think Brüggen has more gravitas than the - in my mind - more lighter, "Mozartian" Hogwood.

The sound of Jochum in the Concertgebouw is excellent. 

Q

Reporting back after the promised listen, I find Hogwood to be a little better than I remember, but not enough to change my basic opinion. Que's term "Mozartian" is appropriate.

Thanks and sorry for the late reply. I think the reason I bought Hogwood back then was based off the quality and virtuosity of AAM's playing. My library has managed to get Bruggen for me via interlibrary loan so I will get to it at some point. I revisited Hogwood/Lubin in the Piano Concerti, something I didn't care for years ago but hearing it again I was absolutely delighted by the performances even in the Emperor. Earliest L'oiseau Lyre release, for some reason the Decca remaster on Spotify sounds more closed in.

Any thoughts on Jochum's second cycle vs the third on EMI? I've been streaming the second Philips cycle this morning and the performances are very good. The third with the LSO is also fantastic, maybe more dynamic and exciting?

[staxomega]

I made it through all of Jochum's Philips and the LSO cycle on EMI. I personally prefer the EMI, it doesn't give up anything in recording quality and some parts of the Philips sound under played most notably the 9th which I found flat in the finale.

[SonicMan46]

TTT after the end of 2020!  Just read through this entire thread and am amazed first at how many recordings are mentioned going back to Furtwängler and Toscanini, and second how the preferences and 'top' listings are so variable, but not surprisingly w/ these works.

For myself, I'm reassessing my modest collection of just 5 sets (culled many times over the decades, so could easily have had a dozen or more) shown below sans Savall - my 2 PI recordings are Gardiner and Immerseel - just listened to a couple discs from each and still like both; my 3 MI sets are shown on the top row below - Cluytens & Mackerras are my favorites - could replace Zinman - the HvK '63 recording seems to be a favorite in this thread?

Finally, since the last posts, Jordi Savall has concluded his project and all 9 symphonies are available in 2 packages at about $30 a piece - the reviews have been very good to outstanding (see attachment, if interested); of course, I'd like to see the two combined into one package/box at a reduced price but?  So, curious if previous choices and favorites have changed in the last few years, PI and MI please, and also thoughts on Savall - is he worth adding or replacing to my 'tiny' PI sub-collection?  Thanks for any comments.  Dave

   

     

[Jo498]

Zinman is quite "HIP"-like with its very fast tempi and lean sound, and I suspect likewise for Mackerras (I only have 2 disc from his older cycle and I'd expect the more recent one even closer to HIP).
So I think, for something  different a more flexible, traditional, slowish approach could be interesting. While I have Cluytens in a big box I only know it superficially and it would not be my first pick for that approach. Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin goes a bit in this direction and it is in very good modern sound. Another one (live and not the best sound) would be Bernstein/Vienna. There are probably many more options, such as Böhm/Vienna.

[SonicMan46]

Zinman is quite "HIP"-like with its very fast tempi and lean sound, and I suspect likewise for Mackerras (I only have 2 disc from his older cycle and I'd expect the more recent one even closer to HIP).
So I think, for something  different a more flexible, traditional, slowish approach could be interesting. While I have Cluytens in a big box I only know it superficially and it would not be my first pick for that approach. Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin goes a bit in this direction and it is in very good modern sound. Another one (live and not the best sound) would be Bernstein/Vienna. There are probably many more options, such as Böhm/Vienna.

Thanks Jo... - yes, I debated about 'where' to place Zinman, but could still cull him out for another in the mode you suggest above - still have to decide on Savall - I've listened to his Nos. 1-5 on Spotify but not on my den speakers; also the 'new' set of 6-9 is also available there - maybe a playlist is in order -    Dave

[André]

You can listen to the Savall performances on Spotify - and other streaming devices no doubt. I suggest you give a thorough listen to at least a couple of the symphonies - not just snippets. My gall with his approach is that he transforms just about everything into a concerto for timpani. Striking and exciting at first but wearying over the long run. Personally I've become allergic to his approach as it amounts to a distortion for effect's sake. Others may disagree of course.

[George]

TTT after the end of 2020!  Just read through this entire thread and am amazed first at how many recordings are mentioned going back to Furtwängler and Toscanini, and second how the preferences and 'top' listings are so variable, but not surprisingly w/ these works.

For myself, I'm reassessing my modest collection of just 5 sets (culled many times over the decades, so could easily have had a dozen or more) shown below sans Savall - my 2 PI recordings are Gardiner and Immerseel - just listened to a couple discs from each and still like both; my 3 MI sets are shown on the top row below - Cluytens & Mackerras are my favorites - could replace Zinman - the HvK '63 recording seems to be a favorite in this thread?

The 63 HvK is good, but the Wand set is even better. (Better sound, too.)

[SonicMan46]

You can listen to the Savall performances on Spotify - and other streaming devices no doubt. I suggest you give a thorough listen to at least a couple of the symphonies - not just snippets. My gall with his approach is that he transforms just about everything into a concerto for timpani. Striking and exciting at first but wearying over the long run. Personally I've become allergic to his approach as it amounts to a distortion for effect's sake. Others may disagree of course.

The 63 HvK is good, but the Wand set is even better. (Better sound, too.)

Hi André and George - thanks for the comments - I've already listened to the first release on Spotify on some bedroom Sonos speakers (good but not the best compared to my den stereo) - noticed the tympani, as did the MusicWeb reviewer quoted below, so I'll preview again in my den w/ headphones (wife is purely a chamber music fan -  ) - if more recommendations come in then will put together another streaming playlist.  Dave

The one niggle I have with these recordings is that the kettledrums, using hard sticks, are a bit prominent and draw attention to themselves a little too often, especially in the earliest symphonies where they seem at odds with the lighter touch. But they nonetheless are highly effective and emphasize the elemental nature of the music, especially in the Fourth and Fifth Symphonies. In particular, the rampaging timpani are simply breathtaking in the first and final movements of the Fourth. (MusicWeb Review)

[Karl Henning]

Were there contemporary accounts of "rampaging timpani," I wonder?...

TD: in no especial order

I like 1. Masur/Gewandhaus (which I kind of "slouched into" when none of the brick-&-mortar shops (funny to think about it now, but at the time there were at least five places an easy walk from the office, in those days, where I could shop for CDs) had the Zinman, on which there was a lot of buzz at the time.
2. Immerseel
3. Blomstedt/SF
4. Lenny/NY Phil
5. Harnoncourt

[SonicMan46]

Were there contemporary accounts of "rampaging timpani," I wonder?...

TD: in no especial order

I like 1. Masur/Gewandhaus (which I kind of "slouched into" when none of the brick-&-mortar shops (funny to think about it now, but at the time there were at least five places an easy walk from the office, in those days, where I could shop for CDs) had the Zinman, on which there was a lot of buzz at the time.
2. Immerseel
3. Blomstedt/SF
4. Lenny/NY Phil
5. Harnoncourt

Hi Karl - thanks for your response and comment that you presumably 'culled out' Zinman?  From reviewing this thread, reading the replies to my post, and looking on Amazon and the Fanfare Archive, I've come up w/ the 5 possibilities shown below (probably a Zinman replacement for me) - despite the thread's positive responses to HvK's '63 set, George convinced me to look for better sound (which I favor greatly) - one question about Lenny - assume the Vienna recordings are the 'good' ones (vs. his older ones w/ the New Yorkers)?  The back cover states these are 'live performances' - what is the level of audience noise/applause/etc.?  Sorry, but an intolerable issue for me.  Thanks again all for your comments and help.  Dave