Darkest/Blackest Cello Concerto?

[amw]

The real question is, what is the most lime green cello concerto?

I think it's Lalo's.

[pjme]

I think it is Milhaud.

P.

[some guy]

I've been listening to music all my life, and I cannot tell the difference between a lime green cello concerto and a chartreuse one.

Am I tone blind or just color deaf???

[Karl Henning]

The People Wish It!

[snyprrr]

The People Wish It!

Rouse
Kokkonen
Aho
Schnittke (though not totally 'black' in my estimation, which, I'm sure, all will disagree with (being that Schnittke DID express himself in music that sounded 'dark' and 'heavy' and, frankly, 'black'))
Ligeti (more just 'dark' rather than emotionally 'black')

Surely many minor Modern Composers since the mid-'70s have written CCs that fit the bill here, rather than, per.... honestly, I can't even THINK of too many... Pintscher? Dusapin? (I wouldn't call his all that 'dark&black'- it's just a cool piece)

ok- here's two that should really fit the bill:

Denisov (very creepy indeed)
Yun (a harrowing musical account of his time in prison)



I don't understand why certain members take umbrage at the idea that music could be 'dark&black'. Isn't that what Expressionism was all about? and didn't early-Hindemith and even early-Myaskovsky seek 'music from the grave' (the criticism of Wagner's music that he was leading it into the realm of the grave with his endless tonality)? Isn't early-Schoenberg full of purposeful grotesqueries and extreme emotional states (as with early-Bartok).

Anyhow, the point of this Thread that I'm enjoying to make is that I don't feel any of these Composers ever truly took the dark-toned cello into the depths of hell (they were all more of 'Total Orchestra' types, no?- anyhow, none of them wrote the DarkestCCEverWritten- I think we can agree- Elgar? sad, not black). Does Rouse come closest? I hope not (unless he reads this and begins No.2 (or 3??)).

I seem to think that one of them thar Nordic Composers would have written the darkest&blackest- hey, I would have given it to Schnittke on temperament alone, but sometimes I find him more BITTER than actually... uh... dark&black... (I know, I know, I'm being a dik here- hey, I would have loved to hear a Stockhausen CC- or a Late Xenakis CC along the lines of his very very 'dark' bass clarinet concerto 'Echange').


I would think that a Composer wanting to make a 'De Profundis' type statement in a concerto-form would naturally use the cello...
two more:

Penderecki (fits the bill)
Halffter (fits the bill)

[snyprrr]

The Penderecki Violin Concerto No.1, that really dreary and scary one- had it been written for cello, I think that would have been the winner for me, maybe?

[Mirror Image]

Yun (a harrowing musical account of his time in prison)

Yes! I need to revisit this work, but it certainly contains a grim narrative. No question about it.

(Looks for Camerata recording)

[amw]

I've been listening to music all my life, and I cannot tell the difference between a lime green cello concerto and a chartreuse one.

Am I tone blind or just color deaf???

If associating colours and sounds is a form of synaesthesia, can what you have accurately be referred to as synanaesthesia?

[some guy]

I sure hope not.

Well, not until I'm sure I can pronounce it.

Now, about that there Yun piece, which was presented to us as "a harrowing musical account of his time in prison."

So. Try it out sometime. Play this piece for someone who has never heard it. Have them, if they will, say what they think it is an account of. (I say "if they will," because I would certainly decline. )

Do this as many times as you like.

You will, I am certain, never get anyone to say that it's a harrowing account of his time in prison.

Now give someone E.E. Cummings The Enormous Room to read.

Do this as many times as you like.

You will, I am certain, get 100% return that it's an account of his time in prison.

That, for your delectation, is the difference between language and music.

You're welcome.

[some guy]

James,

I thought (fondly ) that once you had very adroitly invalidated everything you had ever said that you would be posting less frequently, or at least less invalidly.

We all have our little dreams.

Music is an expressive language, and there are varying degrees of connotation.

Yes, yes it is, and yes there are.

Most of it involves text, words  ..

Dunno about "most" but anytime you have text, you have meaning of a sort that is just not what music has even ever tried to do. Think about it, even if for just a second. If music could do the things that language can do, then what would be the purpose of "most of" music involving text?

Music does a lot things and does them very well. It is a mark of our disbelief in the validity (!) of those things that we keep trying to make out that music does things that it in fact it cannot do, and we add insult to injury by claiming that it does those things very well.

the notes themselves have thought, meaning and purpose within the whole framework; its not just some random, mindless shit.

No one has claimed otherwise, though you're tempting me, I assure you. To claim, as I did, that the Yun concerto does not, indeed cannot, be an account of Yun's experience inside a prison is not at all to claim that it is just (just!!) some random, mindless shit. The alternative to "music does not describe the same way that language does" is not "music is just some random, mindless shit" but "music does something different from what language does, something very important, something that language can just barely approximate and then only when it is firing on all twelve cylinders. And how often does it do that?

Most musicians & serious music lovers know what dark means as it applies to timbre, register etc. and have for centuries.[/font]

I know what "dark" is supposed to mean as applied to timbre, register, etc., though have only done so for decades. (I'm not that old.) If I didn't, I could hardly have made any of the jokes I have made on this thread, about different colors, about wanting a painting without a volume control (or at least, as Karl offered, one that goes up to 11), about being tone blind, and so forth. It's not that I don't know what it's supposed to mean; it's that I don't agree.

And then there was that the point about reductionism. Not so much that there aren't dark moments in any of these pieces (though personally I could do without the visual metaphors) but that all of these pieces are much more complex, much more various, much more interesting than just (just!) dark/black. So even if I grant you your blackness, I still don't think this business is worthwhile.

Anyway, your invalidation of your own self still makes me grin. And nothing you can do or say can ever take that away from me.

[vandermolen]

Frank Bridge's Cello Concerto 'Oration' is a lament for those pointlessly lost in World War One. It does, however, have a hauntingly beautiful, redemptive epilogue - one of my favourite moments in all music.

Kabalevsky's Cello Concerto No. 2 is indeed a dark work - his masterpiece i think and conveying an unexpected depth of feeling.

[ibanezmonster]

I like my music so black that black holes suck themselves up in embarassment. 

[Kontrapunctus]

I'm only listening to black-hued music until a darker color comes along.

[jochanaan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6d8eKvegLI

[jochanaan]

Well, at least you understand that it is an expressive language. So if you understand that, than you shouldn't have to ponder things much - you should get it essentially. And no one is reducing things .. talking about aspects of musc like mood, atmosphere, feel, color, symbolic & poetic aspects, human and spiritual dimensions & meanings ... all worthwhile discussion.

But what music means has been up for discussion for at least a couple of centuries, and probably more.  So it's not surprising that intelligent people such as the ones here at GMG have come to different conclusions about it.  And that's all I'm going to say about it on this thread.

[Christo]

Frank Bridge's Cello Concerto 'Oration' is a lament for those pointlessly lost in World War One. It does, however, have a hauntingly beautiful, redemptive epilogue - one of my favourite moments in all music.

Yes, I wanted to mention it, but see you did it already. Never happened before. 

[snyprrr]

Frank Bridge's Cello Concerto 'Oration' is a lament for those pointlessly lost in World War One. It does, however, have a hauntingly beautiful, redemptive epilogue - one of my favourite moments in all music.

Kabalevsky's Cello Concerto No. 2 is indeed a dark work - his masterpiece i think and conveying an unexpected depth of feeling.

Yes, I have that Wallfisch/Chandos recording, and my-oh-my that truly is a wonderful, great piece. Yea, it's his masterpiece. The Khatchaturian? makes a perfect match.


Everyone is mocking the designation 'black', but I still think you all know what I mean. Again, as far as 'mood', Schnittke's bitter hatred (what else can one call it?) comes the closest aurally to what I'm talking about (it really isn't mistaking Schnittke's disposition, is there?).

Maybe I should have just asked for a bleaker, more bitter and angry, and lonely CC than Schnittke's 2nd? (Rouse?)

[Karl Henning]

Everyone is mocking the designation 'black'...

Only not nearly enough.

Poutiest Cello Concerto! Bring it!

[some guy]

Everyone is mocking the designation 'black', but I still think you all know what I mean.

This is probably the most frequently used non sequitur in the book.

I, at least, am mocking the designation BECAUSE I know what you mean.

And the poutiest cello concerto has got to be the Herbert, if not at first, it certainly is now.

[snyprrr]

I've searched, and I'm back to the beginning... the Denisov and Yun still top the heap,... with Hallfter and Penderecki right there. And maybe Schnittke...


I was searching for more of the same in the Nordic Composers, but was not convinced by Sallinen, and, I'm sure the Holmboe is more Neo-Classical in style rather than morose. But I dooo like Saariaho's 'Amers', though, it's not emotionally dark, it just has a streamlined modern spectral way about it that fulfilled my initial requirements.