How do people know....

[aukhawk]

One doesn't really fight Stalin with G minor or C-sharp major, but with calling him publicly a murderer. 

On Shostakovitch, it seems to me that from today's perspective the irony simply drips out of every bar of his later music, from say the 6th Symphony onwards.  It seems so obvious now, that it's astonishing to me that he kept his head.

Well, I ask for the umpteenth time: suppose one listen to the Symphonie Fantastique or The Seasons without knowing their programme and are asked: what is this music about? What are the chances they have it right? 

I don't think the Symphonie Fantastique is a good example.  Berlioz' program notes for each movement were detailed and extensive and in performance they effectively formed part of a primitive 'multimedia experience'.
Even I knew the story of SF (from music lessons at school) before hearing the music.
But SF is exceptional (though not unique - cf Vaughan-Williams Sinfonia Antartica for example) and I think most non-vocal music is predominantly abstract in nature and as such is not really attempting to 'say' anything - though a listener may well read things into it or, more likely, into the performance.  Even a Funeral march - is often used as just a 'very slow bit' to juxtapose with two faster bits.

[edit] I meant to add - the Vivaldi example, yes, of course, I agree with that one.  The Four Seasons is 95% abstract music, IMO.

[Florestan]

from today's perspective

Always a misleading way to judge the past, don't you think? 

I don't think the Symphonie Fantastique is a good example.  Berlioz' program notes for each movement were detailed and extensive and in performance they effectively formed part of a primitive 'multimedia experience'.

[edit] I meant to add - the Vivaldi example, yes, of course, I agree with that one.  The Four Seasons is 95% abstract music, IMO.

It surprises me you disagree on SF and agree on TFS, because the latter also has a very explicit programme attached to each concert. 

From Wkipedia:

The four concertos were written to accompany four sonnets. Though it is not known who wrote these sonnets, there is a theory that Vivaldi wrote them himself, given that each sonnet is broken down into three sections, neatly corresponding to a movement in the concerto. Whoever wrote the sonnets, The Four Seasons may be classified as program music, instrumental music that intends to evoke something extra-musical.[1]

In addition to these sonnets, Vivaldi provided instructions such as "The barking dog" (in the second movement of "Spring"), "Languor caused by the heat" (in the first movement of "Summer"), and "the drunkards have fallen asleep" (in the second movement of "Autumn").

Here are the sonnets. Are they less detailed and extensive than the notes to SF?

[aukhawk]

From Wkipedia:
The four concertos were written to accompany four sonnets. ...
In addition to these sonnets, Vivaldi provided instructions such as "The barking dog" (in the second movement of "Spring"), ...

Fair enough. I didn't know about that - will bear it in mind when (or rather if) I listen to the Four Seasons again.
Actually - I do rather like 'Winter' as performed on the baroque cello by Sol Gabetta.