What are you listening to now?

[aligreto]

Beethoven: Fidelio, Act 1 [von Karajan]....

[Mister Sharpe]

why Es ist vollbracht, just because it's the last three sonatas?

Curious about this myself and I found this:  "András Schiff observes that the final triptych of Beethoven's piano sonatas shares an interrelationship that is also found in the three final symphonies of Mozart and the final three piano sonatas of Schubert. He points out the allusion to Es ist vollbracht from the Johannes-Passion of Bach; the compaction of material throughout (which, to my mind, is also evident in the F minor string quartet, Op. 95); and, that the sonata, as others have observed, has no beginning and no end, for it arises and subsides in the flow of things." https://culturalrites.com/2016/08/17/beethoven-piano-sonata-30-in-e-op-109-1820/

[prémont]

Re the ladies' voices, though I'm not convinced by those (Premont maybe? ) who say the women mess up to the polyphony because, inevitably, the ear is attracted to the high singers more. Maybe, maybe not. It's not obvious to me.

Machauts Messe is scored for four voices.

1. Triplum
2. Motetus
3. Contratenor
4. Tenor

Of these the triplum and the motetus are approximately written in the same pitch - the triplum a little higher, but crossings between these two parts are not rare. This means, that the motetus happens to have the uppermost tones in between. The contratenor and the tenor are also in the same pitch, somewhat an octave below the triplum and motetus, and crossings between the contratenor and the tenor are frequent, and none of them can be said to be leading. 

It is almost obvious, that the two upper parts should be sung by a pair of identical singers, and that the two lower parts should likewise be sung by another pair of identical singers. The most likely solution is two tenors and two basses. If the triplum is sung by a female alto or a male countertenor, the motetus should be sung by a similar voice to create equality between the two upper parts. Otherwise the triplum will dominate and make the impression, that it is the "solo" and the three other parts the accompaniment, as displayed by many recordings. But I know only one recording, which use two countertenors for both the upper parts (Ruhland). Usually when the triplum is sung by a countertenor or alto, the motetus is sung by a tenor. I am not as such adverse to female voices or countertenors in this repertoire, but the considerations above must be taken into account.

[Karl Henning]

Shostakovich: Symphony No. 9 in E-flat, Symphony No. 5 in D minor
Boston Symphony Orchestra, cond. Nelsons


So, seeing this set at the local library and in light of recent discussions, I decided to pay tribute to the closest major orchestra around.  As before, I find that the movements I think are the best in both works are the slow movements.

Interesting.

[San Antone]

Machauts Messe is scored for four voices.

1. Triplum
2. Motetus
3. Contratenor
4. Tenor

Of these the triplum and the motetus are approximately written in the same pitch - the triplum a little higher, but crossings between these two parts are not rare. This means, that the motetus happens to have the uppermost tones in between. The contratenor and the tenor are also in the same pitch, somewhat an octave below the triplum and motetus, and crossings between the contratenor and the tenor are frequent, and none of them can be said to be leading. 

It is almost obvious, that the two upper parts should be sung by a pair of identical singers, and that the two lower parts should likewise be sung by another pair of identical singers. The most likely solution is two tenors and two basses. If the triplum is sung by a female alto or a male countertenor, the motetus should be sung by a similar voice to create equality between the two upper parts. Otherwise the triplum will dominate and make the impression, that it is the "solo" and the three other parts the accompaniment, as displayed by many recordings. But I know only one recording, which use two countertenors for both the upper parts (Ruhland). Usually when the triplum is sung by a countertenor or alto, the motetus is sung by a tenor. I am not as such adverse to female voices or countertenors in this repertoire, but the considerations above must be taken into account.

The issue is how the parts are pitched.  There is some recent scholarship that suggests the perception of where in the tessitura these parts would fall was possibly a fourth lower than we have commonly thought/used.  I have a couple of articles on this but cannot put my finger on them away from home.

Certainly female voices are inappropriate.

[Karl Henning]

Complete Webern : Boulez



Symphony, Op. 21

Is Feldman saying easel painter like it's a bad thing?  Just wondering.

[cilgwyn]

Good! My budding Mahler collection is making progress! Jessye Norman's singing is sublime. Wonderful performance. Bim! Bam,now!

[San Antone]

Is Feldman saying easel painter like it's a bad thing?  Just wondering.

Glad someone asked. 

I think he is saying that no matter how innovative a composer's work has been, e.g. Wagner, or Schoenberg, they are still working in the traditional genre defining methods: a difference of degree.  Cage however, did something entirely different outside the tradition: a difference in kind. 

[San Antone]

[Mandryka]

He points out the allusion to Es ist vollbracht from the Johannes-Passion of Bach

Il wonder what that's about.

[Kontrapunctus]

Disc No.6 in honor of the 225th anniversary of Mozart's death.

[Mandryka]

Machauts Messe is scored for four voices.

1. Triplum
2. Motetus
3. Contratenor
4. Tenor

Of these the triplum and the motetus are approximately written in the same pitch - the triplum a little higher, but crossings between these two parts are not rare. This means, that the motetus happens to have the uppermost tones in between. The contratenor and the tenor are also in the same pitch, somewhat an octave below the triplum and motetus, and crossings between the contratenor and the tenor are frequent, and none of them can be said to be leading. 

It is almost obvious, that the two upper parts should be sung by a pair of identical singers, and that the two lower parts should likewise be sung by another pair of identical singers. The most likely solution is two tenors and two basses. If the triplum is sung by a female alto or a male countertenor, the motetus should be sung by a similar voice to create equality between the two upper parts. Otherwise the triplum will dominate and make the impression, that it is the "solo" and the three other parts the accompaniment, as displayed by many recordings. But I know only one recording, which use two countertenors for both the upper parts (Ruhland). Usually when the triplum is sung by a countertenor or alto, the motetus is sung by a tenor. I am not as such adverse to female voices or countertenors in this repertoire, but the considerations above must be taken into account.

The higher voices do grab your attention in Kandel's  recording, inevitably - on the other hand I think that the mens' voices are clear and characterful.

I do think it was strange that he used a women's choir given the historical preparation, and I remember being disappointed that his booklet essay doesn't discuss the decision.

Certainly female voices are inappropriate.

Because we know that the Notre Dame  never used them in Machault's day?

[San Antone]

Because we know that the Notre Dame  never used them in Machault's day?

That and the issue of pitch that you did not quote.

[Mandryka]

That and the issue of pitch that you did not quote.

Oh yes I see now.

[prémont]

The issue is how the parts are pitched.  There is some recent scholarship that suggests the perception of where in the tessitura these parts would fall was possibly a fourth lower than we have commonly thought/used. 

If so was the case, the scoring with two tenors and two basses seems to be the only ppssibility.

Certainly female voices are inappropriate.

Well, female voices are obviously inauthentic, and I also prefer male voices, though I have heard some beautiful recordings using female voices.

However the point of my former post was to mention the pairing of the four parts in the Messe. The chosen pitch used for the Messe does not change this.

[prémont]

The higher voices do grab your attention in Kandel's  recording, inevitably - on the other hand I think that the mens' voices are clear and characterful.

I do think it was strange that he used a women's choir given the historical preparation, and I remember being disappointed that his booklet essay doesn't discuss the decision.

As you have pointed out Kandel's recording is very beautiful. And probably too beautiful. I still adhere to Clemencic. I think he achieves the right character of the work.

But the thought that it should be sung a forth below what we are used to, is intriguing.

[Dee Sharp]

Grieg: Peer Gynt Suites; Sibelius: Pelleas and Melisande. Karajan/Berlin. Lush and lovely.

[Todd]

Lucas DeBargue's sophomore effort.  He sounds better in a pure studio setting than a live recording setting, but the disc is mixed.  The Bach Toccata is C minor is enjoyable start to finish.  LvB 10/3 is more problematic.  DeBargue's apparently unorthodox technique doesn't see fully up to the challenge in the opening and closing movement.  Though there are no errors, it seems a bit labored and doesn't flow at times.  Of course, part of that is due to DeBargue's personal rubato and accents.  The Largo is the best thing here, though it is devoid of truly potent forte playing, but the offset comes in lovely details brought out by slow, deliberate playing.  An idea-filled take, but not one of the greats.  The Medtner Op 5 sonata doesn't really float my boat musically, though some of the same traits evident in the Beethoven are also evident here.  There's enough here to make me think I'll try his next disc, provided the repertoire is halfway interesting.

Sound is superb.

[Mirror Image]

The String Quartet No. 2 in A major, Op. 68 and Piano Quintet in G minor, Op. 57 from this newly acquired recording:



Sounds fantastic so far.

[Ken B]

As you have pointed out Kandel's recording is very beautiful. And probably too beautiful. I still adhere to Clemencic. I think he achieves the right character of the work.

But the thought that it should be sung a forth below what we are used to, is intriguing.

I don't know Kandel but do like Clemencic. I have several recordings of this. Clearly though I need to catch up on some newer ones if there are new approaches on pitch.

TD Bach Gardiner disc 35