Beethoven's String Quartets

[Herman]

If a conductor demanded the woodwinds play loudly and due the audio engineer's mix the woodwinds were inaudible during that passage, that wouldn't bother you?

It is a well-established fact there are no woodwinds or conductors in a string quartet. That's why I explicitly asked what could be possibly wrong with a string quartet recording that could give you the feeling it was "unmusical".

[Scarpia]

It is a well-established fact there are no woodwinds or conductors in a string quartet. That's why I explicitly asked what could be possibly wrong with a string quartet recording that could give you the feeling it was "unmusical".

The passage you quoted was not meant to address your question.   By "unmusical," I simply mean that I find that engineering sufficiently annoying that it prevents me from appreciating the music.  My answer to your question appears above, I quote it here:

My characterization of the EMI ABQ recordings as "unmusical" just reflects my personal reaction to them.  What bothers me about them is what I perceive as inappropriate tonal balance (excessive high frequency response) and lack of ambience, or imaging of the sound stage.  That latter problem comes from (I believe) using microphones too close to the instruments, recording each instrument essentially separately and mixing them together. 

I have never listened to any Cordot or Budapest quartet recordings, so I can't comment on them.  However, in those days they recorded with fewer microphones (by necessity) and I suspect that the microphone placement would have been more to my liking.  The old Mercury Living Presence recordings are my ideal, with regard to recording technique, despite the technical limitations of the equipment they were using.

I certainly have heard string quartet recordings in which the balance of the four instruments was not to my liking.  My most common complaint is that the first violin is given undue emphasis.

[Herman]

Over the years I have found that the ABQ was either the victim of excessive praise and adulation, or the reverse. Frankly I think you have no idea how EMI recorded the ABQ, and you're just presupposing things. As I am writing this I am listening to the ABQ's Mozarts 589 and it has space (which you said it didn't) and it is pleasing enough.

It is true that the first violin is somewhat prominent. However, this has nothing to do with the engineering. The ABQ used to have exactly the same balance live, and I'm guessing you wouldn't know, because you sound like the armchair kind of general. Also, the ABQ in its different composition used to sound equally primarius-driven in their Teldec days.

I find it rather sad when this kind of rock & roll debunking is carried over to classical music. The ABQ used to be perceived as relatively succesful  -  so it went without saying they had sold out; they had to record soulless studio settings (just like the Beatles) and they had to sound plastic. Even if none of this was true.

[Scarpia]

Over the years I have found that the ABQ was either the victim of excessive praise and adulation, or the reverse. Frankly I think you have no idea how EMI recorded the ABQ, and you're just presupposing things. As I am writing this I am listening to the ABQ's Mozarts 589 and it has space (which you said it didn't) and it is pleasing enough.

It is true that the first violin is somewhat prominent. However, this has nothing to do with the engineering. The ABQ used to have exactly the same balance live, and I'm guessing you wouldn't know, because you sound like the armchair kind of general. Also, the ABQ in its different composition used to sound equally primarius-driven in their Teldec days.

I find it rather sad when this kind of rock & roll debunking is carried over to classical music. The ABQ used to be perceived as relatively succesful  -  so it went without saying they had sold out; they had to record soulless studio settings (just like the Beatles) and they had to sound plastic. Even if none of this was true.

You can insinuate that I am an ignoramus and that I am responsible for the breakdown of civilization if you'd like.  It doesn't bother me.  The perceived quality of an audio recording is subjective, and no amount of ridicule will change the fact that I didn't enjoy listening to those recordings.  Fortunately there are many choices in this repertoire.

[Scarpia]

This is the edition I had.  Does anyone know if this is the studio set or the later live set?



This one, I take it, is the studio set.

[kishnevi]

This is the edition I had.  Does anyone know if this is the studio set or the later live set?



This one, I take it, is the studio set.

The second one is the studio set.  (I have it.)  Unless ABQ did a series of concerts in a relatively obscure Swiss church...

I have one segment of the live set--the Opus 18 quartets, which were recorded in 1989.

Do you remember the recording dates for your set?

Or we can go the Sherlock Holmes route: the picture of the ABQ members on the studio set booklet seems to be more like the picture on the cover of your set than the picture which is shown on the live recording--there is perceptibly more gray hair (top and beards) in the latter than the in the former, and more gray hair than shown on the cover of your set.

Which, I note, is being offered by one Amazon seller for $125.00

ETA: it's been a while since I've played either of the two sets, but I don't recall anything I disliked in terms of the sonics.  The live recording is, however, apparently a remastering.

[snyprrr]

For those ABQ/EMI recordings, too close, too much bow/rosin scratching on the string sound, not enough resonance of the instrument, presence of the room.  Sound-stage imaging poor, not allowing the individual instruments to be differentiated.  But I suspect my main objection is with the performances themselves.  Personnel changed between the Telefunken and EMI recordings.

After a page of commentary, I have to come down here. Someone else mentioned cds made in the 1980s. Wasn't the word "aggressive" used when describing these kinds of badly mastered digital recordings? I totally hear that in the ABQ/EMI. Someone else mentioned that their Op.76 was very much better, but, please, don't you hear an aggressiveness,... a wearying, jabbing "brightness",... that can be a bit distracting? I wouldn't call Op.76 "unmusical", but I really wonder if the hardness is really coming from the players.

The one EMI/ABQ Late LvB definitely had the yuckies, everything you said above. Perhaps the word "unmusical" is a lightning rod, but certainly, aren't bad recordings of SQs, where, let's say, inner detail is lost, can't they be considered unmusical? I mean, a  muddy texture certainly takes away pleasure no matter what, right?



I do want to say that the ABQ/EMI recordings of avant-garde SQs 'live' (Lutoslawski, Haubenstock-Ramati, Rihm, Schnittke, etc...) all seem to be uniformly excellent. Beautiful recordings, no mastering problems. I only started to encounter the ABQ/EMI "problem" with the Op.76, and then, to a much greater degree in the LvB (and I think it was the studio) set.

[Scarpia]

I do want to say that the ABQ/EMI recordings of avant-garde SQs 'live' (Lutoslawski, Haubenstock-Ramati, Rihm, Schnittke, etc...) all seem to be uniformly excellent. Beautiful recordings, no mastering problems. I only started to encounter the ABQ/EMI "problem" with the Op.76, and then, to a much greater degree in the LvB (and I think it was the studio) set.

I have those avant-guard SQs and recall them as being more satisfactory, although to be honest I think EMI engineering is never truly excellent in chamber music recordings.

[Scarpia]

Or we can go the Sherlock Holmes route: the picture of the ABQ members on the studio set booklet seems to be more like the picture on the cover of your set than the picture which is shown on the live recording--there is perceptibly more gray hair (top and beards) in the latter than the in the former, and more gray hair than shown on the cover of your set.

Which, I note, is being offered by one Amazon seller for $125.00

Offered is one thing, sold is another.

I don't recall any applause on the set I sold off, I guess it is the studio set (someone on this thread mentioned there was applause in the live set).  The orange box is presumably a repackaging of the box I had, which would make it fairly irrational to pay $125 for a set that can be had for about $40.  I looked it up, I got $35 when I sold my set (packaged as three jewel boxes in a slipcase) on amazon marketplace about 3 years ago.

I'd be curious to hear the live set.  At one time I ordered the DVD version.  But even though the set I bought was labeled NTSC it contained PAL discs, which I could not play.  That's EMI for you (Every Mistake Imaginable).

[mjwal]

I too rather dislike the sound of the ABQ Beethoven recordings - though I quite like the Telefunken Mozart quartets. But they sounded more or less the same live doing the whole series in Frankfurt in the 80s,so it's not (merely) the recording or digital mastering but the sonic aesthetic. Not very keen on the Qt Italiano either. I must say that when I did a little survey of more recent Op.131 recordings a few years ago, my partner preferred the ABQ and me the Vegh Mk 2.  I love the (much older - 1953) Hungarian Qt in the late works on an Andromeda transfer, a great discovery for me - I then picked up that wonderful conspectus of their work on M&A. I'm not really one for complete sets, preferring to pick 'n choose, but I have a lot by the Vegh and Talich Qts. Obviously the Busch are the great exemplars, though the Capet weren't bad either - I dare say somebody else even more antiquated than me will recommend the Flonzaley e tutti quanti. A couple of single quartet recordings in my collection I enjoy: Alexander String Qt - Op.59/1, Op.74 (Arte Nova 1997) ; Vlach Qt - Op.95, Op.131 (Praga 1966/67) ; Hagen Qt - Op.127, 132 (DG 2005).
Should I add any other (preferably single) recordings to my hoard - the Takacs, perhaps? I rather dislike what I've heard of the Emerson (it's totally subjective, isn't it, these people are all so brilliant and insightful in their way).

[cosmicj]

Wasn't the word "aggressive" used when describing these kinds of badly mastered digital recordings? I totally hear that in the ABQ/EMI. Someone else mentioned that their Op.76 was very much better, but, please, don't you hear an aggressiveness,... a wearying, jabbing "brightness",... that can be a bit distracting? I wouldn't call Op.76 "unmusical", but I really wonder if the hardness is really coming from the players.

That was me, snyprr.  I think the ABQ Haydn Op. 76/77 discs are very well-recorded and have less of the brightness than the Beethoven live set.  But what you're describing is a common complaint among the "vinylist" audiophiles.  I think you're taking a step in the direction of plugging in a turntable into your system.

Some really valuable performance suggestions on this thread. 

[cosmicj]

Should I add any other (preferably single) recordings to my hoard - the Takacs, perhaps? I rather dislike what I've heard of the Emerson (it's totally subjective, isn't it, these people are all so brilliant and insightful in their way).

mjwal - Check out the Gewandhaus CDs, which are available in single discs on the Berkshire rec outlet. 

[snyprrr]

mjwal - Check out the Gewandhaus CDs, which are available in single discs on the Berkshire rec outlet.

This would take me back to the Suske/Gewandhaus discussion last year (was that THIS thread, or "Beethoven Complete SQs"??). I had been raving about the Suske set, and noticed that the Gewandhaus group was an outgrowth of the earlier group.

Someone (was it Sarge?) got one or two of the Gewandhaus, and I seem to remember him saying there was a wooliness to the proceedings. Still, I'm pretty interested in picking up, say, Op.130, just to hear.

[cosmicj]

Someone (was it Sarge?) got one or two of the Gewandhaus, and I seem to remember him saying there was a wooliness to the proceedings. Still, I'm pretty interested in picking up, say, Op.130, just to hear.

I'd call the recording very good but on the reverbrant side.

[snyprrr]

Convenience BUMP.

[Sergeant Rock]

This would take me back to the Suske/Gewandhaus discussion last year (was that THIS thread, or "Beethoven Complete SQs"??). I had been raving about the Suske set, and noticed that the Gewandhaus group was an outgrowth of the earlier group.

Someone (was it Sarge?) got one or two of the Gewandhaus, and I seem to remember him saying there was a wooliness to the proceedings. Still, I'm pretty interested in picking up, say, Op.130, just to hear.

That wasn't me, Snyprrr. I think the entire set sounds great (bought the big box)....listening to Op.130 right now.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

(bought the big box)

You can get it for $29 on Amazon marketplace right now.  I did.

[Sergeant Rock]

You can get it for $29 on Amazon marketplace right now.  I did.

I hate you.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

I hate you.

[Sergeant Rock]

Okay...I don't really hate you...but I am jealous. Mine was considerably more expensive.

Sarge