Beethoven's String Quartets

[Reverend Bong]

Tell me, in Op 130, do you think it works with the Big Fugue at the end? The reason I ask is that I've been playing an early Juilliard Quartet recording (1963, LP only AFAIK)  with the revised finale and I really like it like that -- it seems to balance so much better. You don't have this enormous monster stuck on the end of all the good humoured parody and comedy you find in the previous five movements.

Anyway, if you like the Big Fugue, which records seem to make the best job using it, not just in terms of playing the fugue, but in terms of making the whole quartet work as a single coherent entity with the fugue?

And anyway  do I have the best view of the previous five movements? Or is a heavier, more serious approach better at making sense of the thing with the fugue at the end?

This is a good question and I'm not ignoring it, I have to have an opportunity to listen to the entire thing in both forms and weigh it up before I can answer.  I have always regarded the GF as a separate beast, but the Vegh have it in its original place and I need to think about it.

[Mandryka]

This is a good question and I'm not ignoring it, I have to have an opportunity to listen to the entire thing in both forms and weigh it up before I can answer.  I have always regarded the GF as a separate beast, but the Vegh have it in its original place and I need to think about it.

I think the Tokyo Quartet's RCA  record of op 130 is particularly successful from the point of view of the transition from the cavetina to the Grosse Fugue. They do an excellent job of making the whole quartet cohere as a single entity in fact.

Re parody in op 130, my own view now is that this may be a question of interpretation. Juilliard 1963 make the moment at the heart of the cavetina, where the music changes rhythm, into an operatic parody. Tokyo, in the second recording on Harmonia Mundi, make the slower qieter music after the big  double fugue in he Grosse Fugue sound like an operatic quartet (I may be pushing things a bit there )

I think both Tokyo records of Op 130 are very interesting, for different reasons.

One thing I've learned from my little exploration of this quartet is that you should play the fugue very differently if you are playing it as part of the quartet.  The transition that the Hagen make into the Fugue is in IMO ludicrous, but their performance of op 133 as a stand alone piece is fantastic. And I'm not sure you would want to hear the Tokyo's RCA op 133 apart from their op 130. Also if you have it as the quartet's final movement, that may well change how you see the previous five movements.

Are tnere any modern ensembles who show a clear preference for the rondo finale? I know Busch did, and I think the Budapest Quartet did too. Juilliard seem to have changed their minds, i have a live record of them playing the quartet which ends with the big fugue. What about more recent performances: have they all plumped for the op 133 ending?

[david-jw]

yes, i noted your comments about the Hollywood earlier in the thread with interest.  I've got them on my ever-growing shopping list, in the hope that I can find them for a reasonable price, but they're fairly steep at the moment.  You seemed to have quite a collection, as I recall.  How do you feel about the Juilliard, not just in regard to the late quartets but the earlier ones as well?  I've been considering a box set of them that I've seen.  I have a lot of recordings of the late, and hardly any middle, and I think no early quartets at all, shockingly.  I narrowly missed a box set of the Italians doing them all this morning.  In general, who would you recommend for early and middle?

Morning Reverend,

imo most sets by reputable quartets have merit, because the music can bear such different interpretation.

The Julliard set to get is this one:



Its scintilating.



I'm not overly fond of early or middle period Beethoven, so tend not to listen to the discs from that period in the complete box sets.

I grew up with the Italiano, so they are my reference point for the early and middle period works.

I believe many people still regard the QI to be one of the leading interpreters for the early works and still strong in the middle works.

I have certainly always found their middle period set to be more than enough for me.

You can't go wrong with the Quartetto Italiano complete SQ box set imo.

Can often be found for quite a modest price on CD.

I still have my beloved complete LP set, which I saved up for as a kid   



The original LP's are much better sounding than the first CD remastering done in the late 1980s.

fwiw I still prefer the LPs to the remastered QI re-issues done in the last 10 years, which are only available as three boxes covering the three periods. The complete QI CD box is the original remasters.

So you might want to look out for another complete LP box.

[Mandryka]

The Hollywood Quartet play op 130 with the rondo.

Emotionally, metaphysically, this is a very deep performance: they find moments where  time stands still, moments of extraordinary emotional openness, which elude the others I've played recently: Juilliard, Tokyo 1 and 2, Peterson, Busch, Smetana 1, Hungarian 1954, Prazak, Hagen on DG and live in 2011. Balances are more interesting too, with more egality, less domination by the violins. The bass-up sonority is nice  in the slow music near the end of the cavetina.

There's not much humour, even in the dance, and it's inclined to reverential, and hence the dance is IMO a weak link in the reading. I suppose the Hollywood's version is as one sided in its way as the Juilliard 1963, just that Juilliard stressed the opposite aspect of the music.

The rondo is strange. While the music has been solemn previosly, they are light and dancing and jocular in the final movement. It's like Beethoven is saying fuck you  to the people who didn't clap the big fugue.

It's an extremely moving and provoking performance despite the strange ending. Even though I normally hate reverential holy mystical Beethoven, I'll be keeping it.

[San Antone]

I grew up with the Italiano, so they are my reference point for the early and middle period works.

I believe many people still regard the QI to be one of the leading interpreters for the early works and still strong in the middle works.

I have certainly always found their middle period set to be more than enough for me.

You can't go wrong with the Quartetto Italiano complete SQ box set imo.

Can often be found for quite a modest price on CD.

I still have my beloved complete LP set, which I saved up for as a kid   



The original LP's are much better sounding than the first CD remastering done in the late 1980s.

fwiw I still prefer the LPs to the remastered QI re-issues done in the last 10 years, which are only available as three boxes covering the three periods. The complete QI CD box is the original remasters.

So you might want to look out for another complete LP box.

I have that set of LPs and trasnferred them to CD but will keep the vinyl too.   I agree, they are great performances.

[david-jw]

I have long wished to hear the 1950s mono Hungarian Quartet, but the oop box set is very expensive and hard to find.

However for anyone who may be interested these are now available on itunes.

The label is not EMI but an obscure French label whom I have never heard of called Ellon.

At first I was'nt sure if it was the 50s mono set or the 60s stereo- however having bought some of the volumes, I can confirm that it is the mono set. Sound quality is very good.



I'm really enjoying the performances- very very intense readings.

[kishnevi]

I have long wished to hear the 1950s mono Hungarian Quartet, but the oop box set is very expensive and hard to find.

However for anyone who may be interested these are now available on itunes.

The label is not EMI but an obscure French label whom I have never heard of called Ellon.

At first I was'nt sure if it was the 50s mono set or the 60s stereo- however having bought some of the volumes, I can confirm that it is the mono set. Sound quality is very good.



I'm really enjoying the performances- very very intense readings.

How does the mono compare to the stereo recordings?  I have the stereo performances as part of a larger set from EMI France, of which I have yet to listen to a note.

[david-jw]

^ I have not heard the stereo recordings, (which is something I intend to rectify on the strength of these mono recordings)   

At times the Hungarian mono reminds me of the Alban Berg quartet's second cycle- brisk tempos and playing of great intensity, even sometimes of the Emmerson's  , but  I think the Hungarians readings are more profound.

[kishnevi]

I have it as part of this set, which Andre/Lilas Pastia motivated me to buy.
Mind you I haven't actually played it yet--embarking on a fifty CD box is challenging, given how high my listening pile remains.  I got it for less than the Amazon price by ordering from Berkshire Record Outlet, so apparently it's the sort of set which can be had for less if you look hard enough.  (Andre did the looking for me, I must add.)
[asin]B000NA2PCS[/asin]
The Amazon UK reviews will give you a good idea of what else in that set, and also just how cheap the packaging is.  One thing not mentioned is that the piano trios are performed by the Hungarian Trio.  Are they any sort of ramification of the Hungarian Quartet?
Since it's drawn mostly from the archives of EMI/EMI France, the tracklisting is completely in French, btw.

I don't know what other incarnations the HQ stereo cycle is available in

[david-jw]

^ thank you for sharing the tip- I will hunt it down 

[Shmonk]

Hi folks. I recently discovered this forum as a source of knowledge and passion. Opinions here have encouraged me to purchase a copy of the Vegh Quartet's 1970s recordings. Unfortunately, it appears they are no longer available on disc.  However, I did find them as an MP3 download here:

http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=852202

I would normally not download a lossy format. The site says their MP3s are 320 kbps.

Can anyone confirm the sound quality of these particular downloads?

[George]

Hi folks. I recently discovered this forum as a source of knowledge and passion. Opinions here have encouraged me to purchase a copy of the Vegh Quartet's 1970s recordings. Unfortunately, it appears they are no longer available on disc.  However, I did find them as an MP3 download here:

http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=852202

I would normally not download a lossy format. The site says their MP3s are 320 kbps.

Can anyone confirm the sound quality of these particular downloads?

No, but that price is fucking outrageous! I'd never pay it.

[stingo]

iTunes has an Essential Beethoven Quartets set for $4.99. No idea which performances they are, but they seem to feature the Vegh quartet.

[Shmonk]

No, but that price is fucking outrageous! I'd never pay it.

Yep, they are not cheap. The price equates to about $10 per disc for the set. That's top dollar for me, especially for a download and a lossy one at that. Without an alternative and better quality source for these recordings, I am considering them. MP3 is not ideal but at a high bit rate can sound indistinguishable from the original, providing it hasn't gone through a number compression processes. I'm not keen to pay top dollar without some assurance that they sound ok.

[Shmonk]

iTunes has an Essential Beethoven Quartets set for $4.99. No idea which performances they are, but they seem to feature the Vegh quartet.

This set on iTunes appears to be the 1952 version. If they are of a decent bitrate and sound quality, then this would be a pretty economical way to buy that set.  Any idea of the file quality compared to the CD?

[stateworker]

Has anyone heard the Barylli Quartet on Westminster? It must be one of the earlier complete recordings - I don't know why, as I've read nothing about them, but it's intriguing me. The recordings seem mysterious in some way

I agree! just came across them and started with the late works. Had to hit the Great Fugue right off, rash as it may be. Beautiful, well considered and intense. Something like a more focused Italian quartet reading. They were sometime Wiener Phil members, after all.

I will delve into their cycle this week, which will make for wonderful counterpoint to the deadening manual labor it will oversee.

Does anyone else have thoughts on the Barylli Quartet's Beethoven?

[Mandryka]

I just discovered the Op 130 here on spotify:



I haven't got the booklet. I assume it's later than the CBS record (ie later than 1941)-- can someone help?

It's interesting. They play the rondo. They take it slower than the studio  -- 9,04 as opposed to 8, 27. But they also take it less lightly --the music in the rondo is more serious and intense and complex sounding than I would have expected in the outer sections especially. I think it's a pretty deep interpretation and it makes a pretty good case for the rondo.

What we have, I suppose, is a record of the strength of the ensemble's commitment to the op 130 finale, and, if the live is later, a record of how their understanding of the music deepened.

[ccar]

I just discovered the Op 130 here on spotify:



I haven't got the booklet. I assume it's later than the CBS record (ie later than 1941)-- can someone help?

Yes - a 1951 live concert at the Ludwigsburg Palace (near Stuttgart). At the time the Busch Quartet still included the brothers Adolph and Hermann but Gosta Andreasson and Karl Doctor had been replaced by Bruno Straumann (violin) and Hugo Gottesmann (viola).

[Brian]

Aren't there a lot of Suske Quartet fans? Cuz reissue:

[San Antone]

Aren't there a lot of Suske Quartet fans? Cuz reissue:

Yes.  The complete set in one place.  Spotify!

As are the Busch Late Quartets.