R.I.P. Margaret Thatcher

[Daimonion]

Well, if Madam Thatcher had been a prime minister in September 1939, Poland would probably have not been left alone... (and IIWW would have lasted considerably shorter)

[Karl Henning]

Well, if Madam Thatcher had been a prime minister in September 1939, Poland would probably have not been left alone... (and IIWW would have lasted considerably shorter)

Difficult to speculate on such lines; we are all creatures of our time, and a Thatcher in 1939 would necessarily have been a different person to the actual Thatcher.

[Parsifal]

Yes, but a genuine education system is ipso facto undemocratic, because it strives for excellence in knowledge, independence in thought and moral compass in action --- a far cry from the egalitarian and leveling ideal of the democratic dogma.

A genuine education system allows each individual an equal opportunity to develop his or her own mind according to his or her own ability and inclination.  I see nothing undemocratic about that.

Ah yes, the old canard of the Enlightenment. The problem is it was tried and failed miserably.

The human condition has improved dramatically since the Enlightenment, so I fail to see where the miserable failure is.

[Daimonion]

Difficult to speculate on such lines; we are all creatures of our time, and a Thatcher in 1939 would necessarily have been a different person to the actual Thatcher.

Right, obviously. A similar conditional, however, would apply equally well to Lord Churchill.

[Todd]

Well, if Madam Thatcher had been a prime minister in September 1939, Poland would probably have not been left alone... (and IIWW would have lasted considerably shorter)

She was 14 at the time.  She would have been out of her depth.  And even Churchill's elevation first to the First Lord of the Admiralty and then PM wasn't enough to shorten the war after the policy of appeasement of the 30s.

[Daimonion]

She was 14 at the time.  She would have been out of her depth

Well. What I had in mind was NOT that 14-years old Thatcher as a PM would have changed anything

[Parsifal]

Well, if Madam Thatcher had been a prime minister in September 1939, Poland would probably have not been left alone... (and IIWW would have lasted considerably shorter)

You have the ability to foresee how history would have proceeded if England had pursued a different policy in 1939?  Perhaps with Poland secure against invasion Germany would never have invaded the Soviet Union and would not have lost the War.  Perhaps perceived belligerence by England would have made it harder for Roosevelt to get the isolationist US to enter the war.  Perhaps all of western Europe would be part of Germany now.   

[Todd]

Perhaps all of western Europe would be part of Germany now.

I thought that was a practical outcome of the current Euro crisis.

[Daimonion]

You have the ability to foresee how history would have proceeded if England had pursued a different policy in 1939?  Perhaps with Poland secure against invasion Germany would never have invaded the Soviet Union and would not have lost the War.  Perhaps perceived belligerence by England would have made it harder for Roosevelt to get the isolationist US to enter the war.  Perhaps all of western Europe would be part of Germany now.   

All of these, both mine and yours, is speculation obviously. Still, however, I believe that the most probably scenario would be as follows. If England (and France!) attacked Germany in September 1939, Berlin would be captured within months - Hitler's army was prepared for offensive war (rather than for defense) and it was all (apart for some like 5 divisions in the West) at the Polish borders (if you want you may check Erich von Manstein's memories for German's view of what could have happened if the Allies attacked).

[Daverz]

I wouldn't expect Lester Maddux to acknowledge the greatness of Martin Luther King, either.

Yeah, right, I'm like a fanatical segregationist because I find your praise of Antonin Scalia risible.  What an asshole. 

It's Lester Maddox, BTW.   

EDIT: the irony is that Antonin Scalia is the guy who thinks that voting rights are a "racial entitlement".

[Daimonion]

I thought that was a practical outcome of the current Euro crisis.

And the funny thing is that politicians in my country (i.e. in Poland and it includes the ruling party) are just at this moment doing their best to introduce us into the Euro zone. What a great sense of the Zeitgeist!

[knight66]

I thought that was a practical outcome of the current Euro crisis.

Excluding the Nordic countries for a start.

Mike

[vandermolen]

Well, if Madam Thatcher had been a prime minister in September 1939, Poland would probably have not been left alone... (and IIWW would have lasted considerably shorter)

It is true that the best time for the French and British to invade Germany was when all the German tanks were in Poland (ie in September 1939). Instead of that they sat behind the Maginot Line and waited for 'something to happen'.  Still, it's easy for me to be wise after the event.

[DavidRoss]

Yeah, right, I'm like a fanatical segregationist because I find your praise of Antonin Scalia risible.  What an asshole. 

No, though you're welcome to misunderstand if you choose. Lester Maddox's attitude toward Martin Luther King is a prime example of bigotry. In his case, it's racial.

[DavidRoss]

Right, obviously. A similar conditional, however, would apply equally well to Lord Churchill.

That's what came to mind immediately for me, too. In Churchill's case, however, the record is very clear that he understood full well what Hitler was up to and warned loud and clear about the danger, but the nitwits in power were too dumb and delusional to heed the voice of reason and read the writing on the wall ... much like the nitwits in power today.

Per Santayana, those who refuse to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. 

[Florestan]

It is true that the best time for the French and British to invade Germany was when all the German tanks were in Poland (ie in September 1939). Instead of that they sat behind the Maginot Line and waited for 'something to happen'. 

That's a good point, but pne can go even further in historical speculation: given the rapid,  strong and effective response Thatcher gave to the Argentinians, one can imagine her striking Germany not in 1939 but much earlier, at the very first clear signs that Germany broke the Treaty of Versailles by beginning to rearm and rebuild her military. 

[Daimonion]

That's a good point, but pne can go even further in historical speculation: given the rapid,  strong and effective response Thatcher gave to the Argentinians, one can imagine her striking Germany not in 1939 but much earlier, at the very first clear signs that Germany broke the Treaty of Versailles by beginning to rearm and rebuild her military. 

Right! In March 1936, for instance, when Hitler made the remilitarization of the Rhineland, his forces (very modest ones, 3 divisions if I remember well) were ordered to immediately withdraw if the French army would make any offensive move.

[Coopmv]

Well, if Madam Thatcher had been a prime minister in September 1939, Poland would probably have not been left alone... (and IIWW would have lasted considerably shorter)

For the 20th century, Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher were the two most important British politicians while Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan were the two most important American politicians.  These four people have helped shape the world history in a very big way.  Lets not forget Pope John Paul II, who with Reagan and Thatcher brought about the collapse of the Soviet Union ...

That Neville Chamberlin was a joker, what a spineless appeaser that man was.

[snyprrr]

Fareed on now:

The problems of the '70s aren't the problems of today!!

Oh really? Same banks, etc.,...

Just listen to Stockman vs. Goolbee, oh, you'll be in stitches!!

[Coopmv]

Fareed on now:

The problems of the '70s aren't the problems of today!!

Oh really? Same banks, etc.,...

Just listen to Stockman vs. Goolbee, oh, you'll be in stitches!!

It is still about jobs and the economy.  We have someone who is totally clueless about the economy leading the country.  He tries to avoid talking about the economy and spends all his time to talk about gun control ...