Beethoven sceptic's thread

[Boris_G]

This is possibly just a temporary phase I'm going through, but I can't be alone. Actually, what the thread should be titled is 'Rant against Beethoven fans', but I've been provoked to starting this partly by Beethoven fanatics getting on their high horse, but more by (through no action of theirs) trying to listen to Beethoven sonatas, specifically Opp. 26, 27 and 28 played by Andras Schiff. I'm sure it's not Schiff's fault, but Beethoven sounds to me both trivial and self-important (I'm not saying he *is*) compared to, say, Bach.

The point is, I suddenly thought why should I bow down and worship the great god Beethoven, rather than admit I prefer the company of other composers (Ravel, Debussy, Delibes, Britten etc)? Nobody should think the worse of someone because they fail to enjoy engaging with Wittgenstein and would rather prefer to read Anthony Trollope. I'm staking my right to dislike Beethoven and to prefer other composers. So please, don't try to persuade me that I'm mistaken or that I've misunderstood Beethoven - if only I'd try this or that work, etc. In the right mood I enjoy certain Beethoven works, but I just wanted a virtual room to get this off my chest, and (out of interest) to see if anyone else feels the same way.

[Drasko]

Trollop over Wittgenstein? Any day.

[Mark]

Wow! Controversial.

I love Beethoven, so while I can't share in your rant, I'll certainly pop back here to see who says what. Expect some tough talk.

[Soundproof]

A historical review of the likeminded:

We found Beethoven's Ninth Symphony to be precisely one hour and five minutes long; a fearful period indeed, which puts the muscles and lungs of the band, and the patience of the audience to a severe trial ... . The symphony we could not make out; and here, as well as in other parts, the want of intelligible design is too apparent.
                 -- The Harmonicon, London, 1825

The whole orchestral part of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony I found very wearying indeed. Several times I had great difficulty in keeping awake ... . It was a great relief when the choral part was arrived at, of which I had great expectations. It opened with eight bars of a common-place theme, very much like Yankee Doodle ... . As for this part of the famous Symphony, I regret to say that it appeared to be made up of the strange, the ludicrous, the abrupt, the ferocious, and the screechy, with the slightest possible admixture, here and there, of an intelligible melody. As for following the words printed in the program, it was quite out of the question, and what all the noise was about, it was hard to form any idea. The general impression it left on me is that of a concert made up of Indian warwhoops and angry wildcats.
                 -- A Providence, R.I., newspaper quoted in The Orchestra, London, 1868

If the best critics and orchestras have failed to find the meaning of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, we may well be pardoned if we confess our inability to find any. The Adagio certainly possessed much beauty, but the other movements, particularly the last, appeared to be an incomprehensible union of strange harmonies. Beethoven was deaf when he wrote it.
                 --Boston Daily Atlas, 1853

How true. And maybe John Ruskin was likewise afflicted.

Beethoven always sounds to me like the upsetting of bags of nails, with here and there an also dropped hammer.
                 --John Ruskin to John Brown, 1881

And who is this guy Wagner to be dissenting???

... It is wonderful how the master makes the arrival of the human voice and tongue a positive necessity, by this awe-inspiring recitative of the bass strings; almost breaking the bounds of absolute music already, it stems the tumult of the other instruments with its eloquence, insisting on decision, and passes at last into a songlike theme whose simple stately flow bears with it, one by one, the other instruments, until it swells into a mighty flood.
                 --Richard Wagner, 1846

[Bogey]

Nothing wrong with not preferring a certain composer's work.  I happen to put Beethoven at the top of my list, as does my wife, but if you want to relegate him to the bottom of yours, then so be it.  Plenty of music out there, so listen to what you enjoy.  
FWIW I'm in the same boat when it comes, for the most part, to Mahler.  I do occasionally revisit his music to see if it strikes a new chord, but it has not, so I just return to what I enjoy while also trying new works and composers that I am not familiar with.  In short one of my favorite posters, David Ross, wrapped it up nicely some while ago when he posted:

If you like him, what difference does it make whether 10% or 90% share your tastes?

[BachQ]

The point is, I suddenly thought why should I bow down and worship the great god Beethoven, rather than admit I prefer the company of other composers (Ravel, Debussy, Delibes, Britten etc)?

Ooooh Ooooh!   You "suddenly thought" this!

Good for you!

I'm staking my right to dislike Beethoven and to prefer other composers.

Ooooh Ooooh!  Phone the neighbors and wake the kids ..........

So please, don't try to persuade me that I'm mistaken or that I've misunderstood Beethoven -

Don't worry.  Go listen to your Delibes and shut the f*** up ........

[Boris_G]

Ooooh Ooooh!   You "suddenly thought" this!

Good for you!

Ooooh Ooooh!  Phone the neighbors and wake the kids ..........

Don't worry.  Go listen to your Delibes and shut the f*** up ........

Touched a raw nerve, have I?

[Boris_G]

Actually, what the thread should be titled is 'Rant against Beethoven fans', but I've been provoked to starting this partly by Beethoven fanatics getting on their high horse

If it isn't silly enough to rant against a composer, surely it's complete silliness to rant against his fans. 

but I've been provoked to starting this partly by Beethoven fanatics getting on their high horse

Or by the sheer joy of the LvB fans? C'mon, now, let's be honest here.

Sorry George, but I've absolutely no problem with 'sheer joy'. It's when certain Beethoven fans (not all of them) become intemperate and abusive at the mere suggestion that their hero was a less than perfect composer that I feel there's a problem. You may note that nowhere in my initial post on this thread did I actually claim that Beethoven was anything less than a great composer. And I should add that this is (or rather 'was', given some of the response I've now received) nothing personal between me and those Beethoven worshippers since the abuse was mostly aimed at posters other than myself.

[Larry Rinkel]

Sorry George, but I've absolutely no problem with 'sheer joy'. It's when certain Beethoven fans (not all of them) become intemperate and abusive at the mere suggestion that their hero was a less than perfect composer that I feel there's a problem. You may note that nowhere in my initial post on this thread did I actually claim that Beethoven was anything less than a great composer. And I should add that this is (or rather 'was', given some of the response I've now received) nothing personal between me and those Beethoven worshippers since the abuse was mostly aimed at posters other than myself.

He is (at times) an imperfect composer. The very scope of his ambition makes him less perfect than (shudder) Delibes. It is, for example, often acknowledged even by his greatest admirers that the last two movements of the Eroica are not as strong as the first two; that some of the early sonatas like opp. 22 and 27/1 are deathly dull; that the Violin Concerto is weak; that the choral finale of the Ninth Symphony was a mistake; and that the sheer aggressiveness of works like the Hammerklavier Fugue and the Grosse Fuge can be wearing. I (either) shrug my shoulders (or) become intemperate and abusive at the suggestion that any of this matters. So I could try to persuade you that you're mistaken or that you've misunderstood Beethoven - if only you'd try this or that work, etc., but at the moment I'll shrug my shoulders, let you have your Britten, and I'll listen to Op. 127. 

[Larry Rinkel]

I wouldn't recommend "bowing down and worshipping" any composer, really.

I have no hesitation doing so. Why not worship the most remarkable products of the human mind?

[M forever]

I totally agree with Boris_G.

It is completely beyond me how anyone can have the nerve to call a composer "great" who didn't even write a contrabass concerto.

No, the 9th symphony doesn't count although it is more difficult to play than a lot of the concerto literature for the contrabass.

[Boris_G]

I have no hesitation doing so. Why not worship the most remarkable products of the human mind?

Be in awe of the achievements by all means, but IMHO to bow down and worship anything created by the human mind and hand is, to say the least, demeaning to anyone of any intelligence. Further, to fail question or critically examine even what appears to be the greatest achievements means we do not truly appreciate what is truly great, and are ill-equipped to recognise greatness where it exists in what is new.

Sententiously yours,

Boris

[Scriptavolant]

Someway I understand  you, Boris.
My troubles with Beethoven has nevertheless little to do with his music, and a lot to do with his biographers, or the philosophers that claimed to hold the secrets of his greatness. I have a lot of troubles with beethovians too, which are a particular category, usually uncapable to appreciate him without discrediting sarcastically everything else.
Ultra-beethovians tend to be voracious too; not only Beethoven wrote the greatest piano sonatas, string quartets and symphonies ever (I may agree mildly with this), but he wrote the greatest violin sonatas, wind music, lieder, cantatas and operas too, and if this isn't widely accepted as a matter of fact, it is only due to the conspiracy of mozartian critics and fashion shallow listeners.

Said that, I've forced myself to steer solely towards his music in the last period, and found out I have a strong preference for his late works, including the three sonatas and the late quartets, which are truly goldmines. I think I share Albert Einstein view that "middle" Beethoven is a bit too belligerent for my taste. The way he challenges his own juvenile belligenrence throughout the last works is priceless, musically and philosophically revealing.

[Soundproof]

Be in awe of the achievements by all means, but IMHO to bow down and worship anything created by the human mind and hand is, to say the least, demeaning to anyone of any intelligence.

Aaaaaaaargh! Aaaaaaaaaaargh! Aaaaaaaargh! You can set that to any music you like. How can that sentence make sense?

[Boris_G]

Aaaaaaaargh! Aaaaaaaaaaargh! Aaaaaaaargh! You can set that to any music you like. How can that sentence make sense?

I don't follow you - what makes that sentence nonsense?

[Boris_G]

Someway I understand  you, Boris.
My troubles with Beethoven has nevertheless little to do with his music, and a lot to do with his biographers, or the philosophers that claimed to hold the secrets of his greatness. I have a lot of troubles with beethovians too, which are a particular category, usually uncapable to appreciate him without discrediting sarcastically everything else.
Ultra-beethovians tend to be voracious too; not only Beethoven wrote the greatest piano sonatas, string quartets and symphonies ever (I may agree mildly with this), but he wrote the greatest violin sonatas, wind music, lieder, cantatas and operas too, and if this isn't widely accepted as a matter of fact, it is only due to the conspiracy of mozartian critics and fashion shallow listeners.

Said that, I've forced myself to steer solely towards his music in the last period, and found out I have a strong preference for his late works, including the three sonatas and the late quartets, which are truly goldmines. I think I share Albert Einstein view that "middle" Beethoven is a bit too belligerent for my taste. The way he challenges his own juvenile belligenrence throughout the last works is priceless, musically and philosophically revealing.

Agreed (including what you say in the final paragraph, though that of course is a matter of taste).

[Soundproof]

I don't follow you - what makes that sentence nonsense?

Intelligence of the kind we are discussing (human) and products of the human mind are quite inextricably bound up. These can not in any way be exclusive sets.
If you had mentioned instinctual behaviour freed from intellectual obfuscation, we could get a discussion going. Or not. But the whole point of developing an intelligence in the first place is to be able to grow and harvest the fruits of the human mind.

[Boris_G]

Intelligence of the kind we are discussing (human) and products of the human mind are quite inextricably bound up. These can not in any way be exclusive sets.
If you had mentioned instinctual behaviour freed from intellectual obfuscation, we could get a discussion going. Or not. But the whole point of developing an intelligence in the first place is to be able to grow and harvest the fruits of the human mind.

You're making it far more complicated than necessary to get to grips with what I'm saying. You and I (and a heck of a lot of people) know that humans are fallible. Ergo, to fall down and worship anything a human or even what a group of humans has created (ie to treat it as infallible and the acme of perfection without question) is to abdicate your intelligence. To question human achievements only seems nonsense if you believe that human minds are all wired the same way, with exactly the same abilities, blind spots etc etc

[Soundproof]

Then we're on the same page. I detest just about everything humans are capable of and would never dream of uncritically worshipping what we're up to.
But your sentence bit its tail in a manner that I had to "detest".

[aquablob]

I think I share Albert Einstein view that...

Are you referring to the physicist? Or did you mean Alfred Einstein, the musicologist?

that some of the early sonatas like opp. 22 and 27/1 are deathly dull