Beethoven sceptic's thread

[Boris_G]

Soundproof, here's the sentence you're trying to pick holes in:

Be in awe of the achievements by all means, but IMHO to bow down and worship anything created by the human mind and hand is, to say the least, demeaning to anyone of any intelligence.

Notwithstanding the fact that all human (or indeed mortal) endeavour is likely to be fallible in some way or other, we all know that some humans are more gifted with intelligence than others. It's a sad fact, but there it is. It would be even sadder if those intelligent humans failed to use their minds when engaging with the world, even when facing great 'masterpieces' by Beethoven or anyone else. To 'bow down and worship' is to totally abdicate any intelligence you have: it's a horrible practice invented by certain religions to keep people - unruly as they can be - under the control of their church. Besides, I wonder what Beethoven would think if he thought certain people were effectively creating a religion in his name.

[Scriptavolant]

Are you referring to the physicist? Or did you mean Alfred Einstein, the musicologist?

Albert Einstein, the physicist, and cousin of Alfred.

"Mozart is the greatest composer of all. Beethoven created his music, but the music of Mozart is of such purity and beauty that one feels he merely found it- that it has always existed as part of the inner beauty of the universe waiting to be revealed."

[zamyrabyrd]

Hopefully this thread wasn't intended to be provacative, at least in the way another thread had gone ad hominem and into the waste basket. Really, though, I think the issue is what a person is looking for in a composer's output.

If you're looking for heart-on-one's sleeve lyricism, then don't go for the early piano sonatas of Beethoven. (Try Rachmaninoff instead or even Schubert's piano music.) In my opinion they are more about musical structure and even as working out of problems that he solved much better in the string quartets or symphonies. He didn't, like Brahms, discard his less than perfect attempts but these were necessary nevertheless. Similarly, if you're looking for a tune to whistle, then don't go for the more abstract works of Bach.

Get my drift?

ZB

[Que]

This is possibly just a temporary phase I'm going through, but I can't be alone. Actually, what the thread should be titled is 'Rant against Beethoven fans', but I've been provoked to starting this partly by Beethoven fanatics getting on their high horse, but more by (through no action of theirs) trying to listen to Beethoven sonatas, specifically Opp. 26, 27 and 28 played by Andras Schiff. I'm sure it's not Schiff's fault, but Beethoven sounds to me both trivial and self-important (I'm not saying he *is*) compared to, say, Bach.

The point is, I suddenly thought why should I bow down and worship the great god Beethoven, rather than admit I prefer the company of other composers (Ravel, Debussy, Delibes, Britten etc)? Nobody should think the worse of someone because they fail to enjoy engaging with Wittgenstein and would rather prefer to read Anthony Trollope. I'm staking my right to dislike Beethoven and to prefer other composers. So please, don't try to persuade me that I'm mistaken or that I've misunderstood Beethoven - if only I'd try this or that work, etc. In the right mood I enjoy certain Beethoven works, but I just wanted a virtual room to get this off my chest, and (out of interest) to see if anyone else feels the same way.

Sorry Boris, this is one of those useless threads.
Or maybe not - you wanted this "of your chest"- and that you've done.  End of problem I would say.

You don't care for Beethoven? That's absolutely fine by me.
A lot of people don't care for a lot of composers - I don't care for a lot of composers too.

So I'm suspecting that the fact that you have a particular problem with your minority view on Beethoven, has to do with his universally iconic status as a composer. And the problem you personally have with that. Rod Corkin had a similar "problem" with Bach.

You say the problem arises from abuse by Beethoven "fanatics". I haven't seen much of that here, but I do not doubt there is abusive behaviour. People get abusive over all kinds of differences in opinion: on composers, but also over particular pieces, even criticism of particular recordings can cause some posters here to get foam in their mouth and redness in their eyes.
So this is not special for any difference in opinion on Beethoven, and bares no relation to whatever merits Beethoven's music has or doesn't have.

Q

[Mark G. Simon]

This is possibly just a temporary phase I'm going through, but I can't be alone. Actually, what the thread should be titled is 'Rant against Beethoven fans', but I've been provoked to starting this partly by Beethoven fanatics getting on their high horse

I am reminded of the time someone told Debussy he was bothered by the actions of the Debussyites. Debussy rolled his eyes and said "They may bother you, but they are absolutely killing me!" We can only imagine what his reaction would have been to our former poster who continually marvelled at the beauty and aristocratic sensuality of the Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. There was a lot of anti-Debussy vitriol on this forum in reaction to him.

I would advise you never to hold a composer responsible for the actions of his followers. If the actions of certain "Beethoven fanatics" bother you, what does Beethoven have to do with it? Do you think he orchestrates people's behavior from beyond the grave? Listen to a composer as if he were the only other person in the room, and as if he had something to say directly to you. Tell all intermediaries to wait quietly outside, as you have a matter to discuss which is strictly between you and the composer. If you find you cannot do this, then wait until such time as you are able to do it.

[Tancata]

If the actions of certain "Beethoven fanatics" bother you, what does Beethoven have to do with it? Do you think he orchestrates people's behavior from beyond the grave?

As has recently been established, Beethoven couldn't have orchestrated a piss-up in a brewery...

[Larry Rinkel]

Be in awe of the achievements by all means, but IMHO to bow down and worship anything created by the human mind and hand is, to say the least, demeaning to anyone of any intelligence. Further, to fail question or critically examine even what appears to be the greatest achievements means we do not truly appreciate what is truly great, and are ill-equipped to recognise greatness where it exists in what is new.

Sententiously yours,

Boris

Kindly re-read my reply #10.

Unsententiously yours,

Larry

[Boris_G]

He is (at times) an imperfect composer. The very scope of his ambition makes him less perfect than (shudder) Delibes. It is, for example, often acknowledged even by his greatest admirers that the last two movements of the Eroica are not as strong as the first two; that some of the early sonatas like opp. 22 and 27/1 are deathly dull; that the Violin Concerto is weak; that the choral finale of the Ninth Symphony was a mistake; and that the sheer aggressiveness of works like the Hammerklavier Fugue and the Grosse Fuge can be wearing. I (either) shrug my shoulders (or) become intemperate and abusive at the suggestion that any of this matters. So I could try to persuade you that you're mistaken or that you've misunderstood Beethoven - if only you'd try this or that work, etc., but at the moment I'll shrug my shoulders, let you have your Britten, and I'll listen to Op. 127. 

I have no hesitation doing so. Why not worship the most remarkable products of the human mind?

The first answer's eminently sensible. Stupid of me to not refer to this when reading your second answer, which is patently silly and I guess you know this as well as I do. But you did pose it as a question, so I couldn't resist answering. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

...but Beethoven sounds to me both trivial and self-important (I'm not saying he *is*) compared to, say, Bach.

I know you're not in the mood for a sermon but is there any harm in pointing out to you where you might be in error?

I mean, there's no harm in a little education, right?

You're not the first person to proffer the theory of Beethoven's so-called "self-importance". This seems to be one of the first things that comes up in any "Beethoven-Haters" meeting.

But it isn't a valid criticism.

What makes Beethoven tick is not so much his "heroic" surface appearance but rather the *humor* which he embeds strategically in and about his music.

Unfortunately, this humor is the toughest ingredient in Beethoven to recognize. Most folks are too distracted by all that 'heroism' to notice it.

But it's there. Make no mistake...

One problem is that the humor seldom jumps out and nips one on the bum the way the 'heroism' does. It's not a beacon, or a roadsign, or a slap in the face. It's veeeerrrry subtle. And that is the magnificence of Beethoven - the whispery funnybone-like subtleties sprinkled in and about his music.

It's perfect foil for all that 'surfacy' heroism. It's what mitigates Beethoven's austerity and brings it all 'down' to a level of human warmth. And most important, it's what prevents Beethoven's music from falling into the trap of "self-importance". And Beethoven recognized all this. Hence the penchant for self-parody in the form of humor.

Now, one problem might be the performer. It's essential for a performer to recognize this and failing this Beethoven is slighted. Such might be the case with Andras Schiff. I don't know for certain as I haven't heard him in Beethoven yet. But don't be surprised if you don't "get" Beethoven (or any other composer) when the essence of the composer is half represented.

I'm not pointing fingers...but it is essential NOT to prejudge a composer based on limited exposure.

What do you know of Beethoven beyond Schiff?

Now, don't get me wrong...I'm in no way trying to coerce you in any way. But, like I said, a little insight might go a long way towards reconciliation when confronted with something relatively unknown (or 'distasteful' ).

Not that you don't "know" Beethoven...but if you don't recognize humor in the music then, well...you really don't know Beethoven...

[quintett op.57]

Wow! Controversial.

I love Beethoven, so while I can't share in your rant, I'll certainly pop back here to see who says what. Expect some tough talk.

I'm not that sure. Beethoven's fan have always seemed tolerant to me (I'm 1 of them ). I don't really know why (actually I have some ideas about it, I've always been wondering about this). I don't think this thread will change into a battlefield. Unlike threads about other composers....
We'll see if I'm wrong....

What do you think about his chamber output, Boris?

[PSmith08]

I would agree, pretty much entirely, with donwyn.

I'll offer my own example, and then make a few remarks generally. Look at the B flat major sonata (op. 106) for an example of Beethoven's wit, if not humor. He uses a fugue (prefiguring the gigantic one that closes the sonata) in the development section of the first movement. It's first voice is also a little "cute" compared to what we've just seen. That's doubly witty: not only am I going to shock you into attention by using a baroque device in a classical form, I'm going to do it in an off-hand, nonchalant way. This, too, is after he's done some interesting things with the key (relative to what you'd expect) in the exposition. He's showing off a little bit, but he's being ironic about it. He might be Ludwig der Große, but he's (seemingly) self-aware and willing to use that status to do unexpected things. Or things that are jarring.

In any event, you don't have to like Beethoven, his music, or his fans. There is some Beethoven for which I simply don't care. Don't write him off, though. If you're listening, he has a lot to say in a witty, intelligent, and masterful way.

[Don]

Boris must have much time to waste by starting a thread dumping on Beethoven and Beethoven fanatics.  I'll never understand this stuff.  If you don't like something, don't engage in it.

[Mark]

Boris must have much time to waste by starting a thread dumping on Beethoven and Beethoven fanatics.  I'll never understand this stuff.  If you don't like something, don't engage in it.

I'm with Don.

[Mozart]

Fidelio....how do people like that garbage?


Other than that, Beethoven is fine in my books.

[Boris_G]

Boris must have much time to waste by starting a thread dumping on Beethoven and Beethoven fanatics.  I'll never understand this stuff.  If you don't like something, don't engage in it.

Sorry, but Beethoven - from time to time - is inescapable in my line of business, and I suddenly felt sick of the knee-jerk reaction (manifested by a number of posters including at least one on this thread) that nearly everything he does is beyond criticism. I really don't think I've dumped on Beethoven, though I accept that I made the thread more provocative than I need to have done by giving it the label I did. Nonetheless I hope one positive result will be that people will rethink why they like or dislike his music, rather then closing ranks and defending Beethoven as if he's some holy cow.

[Tancata]

...rather then closing ranks and defending Beethoven as if he's some holy cow.

He's more a really succulent, deliciously roasted cow...care for a slice?

[quintett op.57]

Boris must have much time to waste by starting a thread dumping on Beethoven and Beethoven fanatics.  I'll never understand this stuff.  If you don't like something, don't engage in it.

The title is provocative, but we have to admit that Boris is probably interested about the interesting answers.
So, in this case, why not starting such a thread? 

[marvinbrown]

Wow! Controversial.

I love Beethoven, so while I can't share in your rant, I'll certainly pop back here to see who says what. Expect some tough talk.

  Mark, I see you've scored yourself front row seats to the fight of the season....Ludwig VS. Boris.

  Any spare tickets available? 

  PS: Next week's fight:  Marvin VS. Mahler  .
  marvin

[Heather Harrison]

When I saw this thread, I figured that it would elicit strong reactions, but against my better judgment, I decided to look anyway.  The basic idea posed here seems reasonable to discuss.  In general, certain composers (Beethoven, Bach, Mahler, Mozart, ...) do have groups of fanatics who have a hard time tolerating the idea that some people might just not connect strongly with the music.  Also, some composers (i.e. Telemann and other composers of lighter styles of music) have groups of fanatical detractors.  I have found this phenomenon to be interesting, especially since aesthetic judgments tend to be so highly subjective.  What does it matter if someone doesn't happen to connect strongly with Beethoven?  I have two friends who have a strong interest in many types of classical music but don't happen to be highly interested in Beethoven's music (although there are a few pieces that they like - one likes the Third and Ninth symphonies, and the other likes the "Spring" violin sonata).  I listen to Beethoven a lot, and my interest in him is growing lately.  It actually took me a bit of time to get to this point; while there are pieces I have liked from the beginning, it took me some time to warm up to a lot of his work.  I like his music, and he is one of my favorite composers of his time, but I don't worship at his altar and I don't get upset if somebody doesn't like him.

Heather

[Scriptavolant]

Unfortunately, this humor is the toughest ingredient in Beethoven to recognize. Most folks are too distracted by all that 'heroism' to notice it.

If I had to pick some humor in Beethoven, I'd pick it - as I wrote - in his extreme production. Not to recognize humor in all Beethoven seems no fault of artless listeners to me, on the contrary a huge Literature and a lot of idealistic intepretations of his music stressed his heroism to promote the view of a nobile art to oppose against Classicism emptiness. A prejudice that is still widely believed.
I think that many folks misunderstand Mozart on the same basis, just leaning on malicious Mozart's lectures which were introduced in the Romantic period. But strangely to feel sick about Mozart is considered to be ok.