Please help me to understand The Missa Solemnis.

Started by Mandryka, June 28, 2013, 12:13:42 PM

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Mandryka

Over the years I've been at various times infatuated with a whole bunch of recordings of The Missa Solemnis. My latest is Clemens Krauss's. In the past there has been Harnoncourt's unpublished  live, the one with Kipnis and Toscanini, Gielen's, an early one from Karajan, Jochum, Levine's, an unpublished live one from a prom by Horenstein and one from Silvestri.

My relationship with these recordings is very visceral. I have no idea why I like them, I do find them life enhancing. And when I find a new one I tend to dump the old. It's a sort of sequential monogamy.

Hence this plea: help me to understand the Missa Solemnis. What are the things to look out for in a performance? What are the different performance styles which have been applied over the years? How do different conductors view the work?

It's as if the work is so big, so important, so cosmic, that I can't get my head round it. I'm not clever enough.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

mjwal

"I'm not clever enough." Me neither. There is an interesting - if not entirely convincing - essay by Adorno on this, "Beethovens verfremdetes Hauptwerk"; the going translation of this is "alienated magnum opus", but alienated doesn't get the sense of ostranenie, meaning defamiliarisation, in this case of the archaic modal elements (e.g. Mixolydian) Beethoven worked into the work, which seems to bother Adorno. I also have a monograph by Robert Fiske, and there are wise words by Rosen in The Classical Style.
Sometimes this work gets me, catches me by surprise, at times I start listening and can't go on. - I have recordings by Toscanini, Gielen (1), Horenstein and Silvestri, Klemperer Cologne and EMI, Bernstein - which latter I find sounds somehow blowsy and showy, like a Latin poule de luxe. The problem for me about the work is that it must integrate those "archaic" elements into what is almost a 19th century opera that ventures into harmonic-rhythmic territory that sounds to me like the kind of proto-modernistic enigmatic concentration-cum-disjunction you find in his late sonatas or quartets. There is also something disconcerting, almost terrifying about the work at times: "From behind the closed doors of one of the parlours we could hear the master working on the fugue of the Credo, singing, yelling, stamping his feet. When we had heard enough of this almost frightening performance and were about to depart, the door opened and Beethoven stood before us, his features distorted to the point of inspiring terror" etc. (Schindler) I can hear this in parts of Klemperer's Cologne performance of the Credo, which I am listening to as I write. Then there is something Dionysian about the following Hosanna - and does anyone else hear the source of parts of Parsifal and Lohengrin in the intro to the Benedictus?
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Leo K.


Quote from: mjwal on June 30, 2013, 08:38:52 AM
"I'm not clever enough." Me neither. There is an interesting - if not entirely convincing - essay by Adorno on this, "Beethovens verfremdetes Hauptwerk"; the going translation of this is "alienated magnum opus", but alienated doesn't get the sense of ostranenie, meaning defamiliarisation, in this case of the archaic modal elements (e.g. Mixolydian) Beethoven worked into the work, which seems to bother Adorno. I also have a monograph by Robert Fiske, and there are wise words by Rosen in The Classical Style.
Sometimes this work gets me, catches me by surprise, at times I start listening and can't go on. - I have recordings by Toscanini, Gielen (1), Horenstein and Silvestri, Klemperer Cologne and EMI, Bernstein - which latter I find sounds somehow blowsy and showy, like a Latin poule de luxe. The problem for me about the work is that it must integrate those "archaic" elements into what is almost a 19th century opera that ventures into harmonic-rhythmic territory that sounds to me like the kind of proto-modernistic enigmatic concentration-cum-disjunction you find in his late sonatas or quartets. There is also something disconcerting, almost terrifying about the work at times: "From behind the closed doors of one of the parlours we could hear the master working on the fugue of the Credo, singing, yelling, stamping his feet. When we had heard enough of this almost frightening performance and were about to depart, the door opened and Beethoven stood before us, his features distorted to the point of inspiring terror" etc. (Schindler) I can hear this in parts of Klemperer's Cologne performance of the Credo, which I am listening to as I write. Then there is something Dionysian about the following Hosanna - and does anyone else hear the source of parts of Parsifal and Lohengrin in the intro to the Benedictus?

Excellent thoughts! Thanks!

I love the Missa Solemnis. I've been collecting recordings of this work the past year, the work fascinates me. I also don't feel clever enough to describe it, but I easily get lost in the sound world of the work!

david-jw

OP- At the risk of being obvious, have you experienced Klemperer in the Missa?

For me his GROC and also his live recordings are still the only accounts that come close to a wholly successful realisation of this most elusive work.

The Missa is unstable, radioactive - it needs careful handling.






Mandryka

#4
Yes, I know Klemperer's studio recording. I was thinking of him when I made a comment somewhere above about the vertical weight in Beethoven, though in Klemperer it's mitigated by horizontal ductility.

My ideal MS wold be one voice per part. And acapella ;)

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

mjwal

Quote from: Mandryka on July 07, 2013, 03:22:32 AM
Yes, I know Klemperer's studio recording. I was thinking of him when I made a comment somewhere above about the vertical weight in Beethoven, though in Klemperer it's mitigated by horizontal ductility.

My ideal MS wold be one voice per part. And a cappella ;)
Perhaps it should get the Clockwork Orange makeover? There are infinite possibilities - ten pianos with an infant choir and a quartet of headmistresses -  ;)
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Mandryka

#6


Terje Kvam. This one's a bit special because it's rapt. Humble. Serious. Tender. Seductive. Admittedly, even Kvam has to be a bit brash in places - like the start of the Credo and Gloria - the music is like that for better or for worse - but still, that's the exception rather than the rule in this performance. You couldn't have an introspective Missa Solemnis but somehow this is along those lines. Sound is OK but far from state of the art. Top tier Missa.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Music does not have to be understood. It has to be listened to. --- Hermann Scherchen

I haven't understood a bar of music in my life, but I've felt it. --- Igor Stravinsky

Von Herzen – möge es wieder – zu Herzen gehn! --- Beethoven

that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.
--- John Keats



"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Mandryka

#8


Great recording and fascinating performance - Herreweghe's  first. One of the challenges of Missa Solemnis interpretations is to find a nice balance between religiosity and theatricality - Herreweghe does that very well here I think. I can even enjoy the more flashy and noisy bits in the Credo and Gloria when Herreweghe does it - he somehow makes it appear noble, grand .

The image on the cover there seems right for the music!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

AnotherSpin

Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2013, 12:13:42 PMOver the years I've been at various times infatuated with a whole bunch of recordings of The Missa Solemnis. My latest is Clemens Krauss's. In the past there has been Harnoncourt's unpublished  live, the one with Kipnis and Toscanini, Gielen's, an early one from Karajan, Jochum, Levine's, an unpublished live one from a prom by Horenstein and one from Silvestri.

My relationship with these recordings is very visceral. I have no idea why I like them, I do find them life enhancing. And when I find a new one I tend to dump the old. It's a sort of sequential monogamy.

Hence this plea: help me to understand the Missa Solemnis. What are the things to look out for in a performance? What are the different performance styles which have been applied over the years? How do different conductors view the work?

It's as if the work is so big, so important, so cosmic, that I can't get my head round it. I'm not clever enough.

A piece of music that can be dissected by the mind is not worth the time to listen to. That's why, in my opinion, most of the intellectual music of the 20th century hasn't stood the test of time. When it comes to the scientific analysis of music, breaking it down into its components, there's an expert on the forum for that—neither you nor I can keep up with him, and we shouldn't even try ;) .

I have a suspicion that your final statement is a joke. I can't believe you don't know that music (like all good things in the world) begins where the mind ends :) .

Todd

One must marvel and/or chuckle at intellectual written posts lamenting the limitations of writing about music on a forum based on the written word.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

AnotherSpin

Quote from: Todd on August 23, 2024, 07:55:31 AMOne must marvel and/or chuckle at intellectual written posts lamenting the limitations of writing about music on a forum based on the written word.

Ha-ha

Mandryka

#12



https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/80/000165508.pdf

Savall . Astonishingly excellent, and full of new ideas (new to me at least) about orchestral balance and about tempo. Everything is sung, but everything has the naturalness of heartfelt speech - that must have come through paying great attention to prosody in rehearsals. The extraordinary exuberance of some passages for once doesn't sound hectoring or vulgar; the contemplative passages sound rapt. 

Best Missa Solemnis ever? Well that question did occur to me, so that's saying something about its effect. Certainly one of them. It has made me see something - Missa Solemnis is peak late Beethoven, just very very hard to perform. Not for nothing did Furtwangler refuse to do it after one or two (presumably unsatisfactory) attempts. But when it's played well, like here, it's evidently a masterpiece.

I think the sound is excellent.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

AnotherSpin

Thank you, @Mandryka. I rarely listened to the Missa Solemnis. The performances I heard as a child in the USSR instilled a strong aversion to this work. Clearly, the time has come to rediscover this music. I am overwhelmed; the music is of incredible warmth and beauty, causing a sweet ache in my heart. Since yesterday, I've listened to several versions. This morning, it was Jochum with the Concertgebouw, the 1970 recording. A very strong impression. Wow. By the way, this recording is currently on sale on prestomusic, in FLAC format it is $4.50.

LKB

For decades now, I've been quite content with the Bernstein/RCO live recording for DG. The film was released on dvd, and it's also been uploaded to YouTube. It's worth checking out just  for Herman Krebbers' playing in the Benedictus, truly sublime.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

Maestro267

Actually while the thread has been revived and its OP is still present...11 years on, has your understanding of the Missa Solemnis improved in that time?

Mandryka

#16
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 29, 2024, 11:40:44 AMActually while the thread has been revived and its OP is still present...11 years on, has your understanding of the Missa Solemnis improved in that time?

I tend to see it more and more as five separate pieces of music. All five in one session seems too overwhelming, too much joy.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Elk

For me, this is one of the great pieces in the Western canon, and equal to Beethoven's late quartets. The most satisfying, magnificent recording I have ever heard, and the one to which I return, is Levine's with its all-star quartet of singers, but others may find it over-the-top.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwUTgk0RNMw

San Antone

I'm not sure what this says about me, but I don't think I have ever tried to "understand" any piece of music, other than just making sense of it, as a musician.

As for the Missa Solemnis, and any work calling for large forces, I tend to prefer those conductors who choose to use smaller groups, and going for transparent, pristine, textures, and warmer, softer colors. This is especially true for the MS.

Here's one:


AnotherSpin

Quote from: San Antone on August 30, 2024, 04:09:16 AMI'm not sure what this says about me, but I don't think I have ever tried to "understand" any piece of music, other than just making sense of it, as a musician.

As for the Missa Solemnis, and any work calling for large forces, I tend to prefer those conductors who choose to use smaller groups, and going for transparent, pristine, textures, and warmer, softer colors. This is especially true for the MS.

Here's one:


Understand? What do we understand in this life? Examples are welcome.