Please help me to understand The Missa Solemnis.

Started by Mandryka, June 28, 2013, 12:13:42 PM

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Florestan

Quote from: AnotherSpin on August 30, 2024, 11:24:19 AMUnderstand? What do we understand in this life? Examples are welcome.

My understanding is that Russia invaded Ukraine. I might have misunderstood the whole thing, though.
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Mandryka

#21


Gardiner II - a distinctive vision because he articulates the music in an un-lyrical speech like way, bringing out the asperities and unexpected changes. As a result it has a sort of airiness, it's forceful, high impact, but that comes from energy rather than weight. Prayerful.  Not at all bombastic.  I thought the Agnus Dei was particularly memorable. The image on the cover seems right for this conception of the music. Well worth hearing.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Cato

#22
Quote from: Mandryka on June 28, 2013, 12:13:42 PMOver the years I've been at various times infatuated with a whole bunch of recordings of The Missa Solemnis. My latest is Clemens Krauss's. In the past there has been Harnoncourt's unpublished  live, the one with Kipnis and Toscanini, Gielen's, an early one from Karajan, Jochum, Levine's, an unpublished live one from a prom by Horenstein and one from Silvestri.

My relationship with these recordings is very visceral. I have no idea why I like them, I do find them life enhancing. And when I find a new one I tend to dump the old. It's a sort of sequential monogamy.

Hence this plea: help me to understand the Missa Solemnis. What are the things to look out for in a performance? What are the different performance styles which have been applied over the years? How do different conductors view the work?

It's as if the work is so big, so important, so cosmic, that I can't get my head round it. I'm not clever enough.



Quote from: Maestro267 on August 29, 2024, 11:40:44 AMActually while the thread has been revived and its OP is still present...11 years on, has your understanding of the Missa Solemnis improved in that time?



Quote from: Mandryka on August 29, 2024, 01:10:42 PMI tend to see it more and more as five separate pieces of music. All five in one session seems too overwhelming, too much joy.



Hello, again Mandryka!

Your last comment above reminds me of what happened with my Latin II students (8th Graders, i.e. 12-14 years old), when we had translated the main texts of the Latin Mass and I played - not without some trepidation - the Credo from Beethoven's Missa Solemnis during one class.

The reaction was, in general, wide-eyed astonishment: keep in mind that most had probably never heard a complete Beethoven work, outside of excerpts played by our Music teacher, who saw them only once a week!

"Wow!  What if they played that at one of our Masses here?" said one boy.
To which another boy said (without thinking): "Yeah, why don't they?"

I smiled and gently explained the obvious!

"The Credo with the Fugue"  I have read that some in Vienna were claiming that Beethoven could not write a fugue, or at least one that would please the critics.

But when did Beethoven or any great musician ever try to please the critics first?

Artists must please that god or goddess of Perfection in their heads, the ineffable Idea which must be brought into reality through words or sounds or images or combinations thereof. 

And so, I think Beethoven, using the sacred texts in his own idiosyncratic way, presented us with an aural picture of whatever Ideas came from his relationship to those prayers.

But this would be true - I think - of any composer of talent reading a text of any kind.  There may be an innate musicality in the words themselves, which is only the starting point, however.  Here I think of Karl Henning's musical elucidation of the texts, which I have written for him to set to music.

After the composer senses that starting point, other Ideas take over, perhaps combining to form a central, main IDEA for the work, depending on what the text is and how the composer reacts to them. 
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Florestan

Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2024, 05:05:29 AMArtists must please that god or goddess of Perfection in their heads, the ineffable Idea which must be brought into reality through words or sounds or images or combinations thereof. 

Hmmmm....

Leaving aside that "must" have no place when it comes to art, I am not sure that Haydn or Rossini would have subscribed to this dogma.

I'll give you the benefit of being carried away by a sudden flight of imagination, Leo!  ;D
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Florestan

Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2024, 05:05:29 AMThere may be an innate musicality in the words themselves

IMHO, this is certainly true for Stabat mater but less so for the Mass.


"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Cato

#25
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 05:10:58 AMHmmmm....

Leaving aside that "must" have no place when it comes to art, I am not sure that Haydn or Rossini would have subscribed to this dogma.

I'll give you the benefit of being carried away by a sudden flight of imagination, Leo!  ;D


;D  Well, let us say it depends on what the artist is creating: certain works may be less compelling (a weaker "must") than others, but they pay the bills!  ;)


Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 05:14:21 AMIMHO, this is certainly true for Stabat mater but less so for the Mass.


True, and I was thinking of the German text by Arnold Schoenberg for his Jakobsleiter cantata, a text which would seem to be rather unmusical, but he finds the music in the words nevertheless.

(To be sure, some might find the entire work "unmusical," but De gustibus... ;D  )
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Florestan

Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2024, 05:58:06 AM;D   Well, let us say it depends on what the artist is creating: certain works may be less compelling (a weaker "must") than others, but they pay the bills!   ;)

Less compelling for whom and in what sense? And, is great art mutually exclusive with paying the bills? ;)









"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Florestan

Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2024, 05:58:06 AMI was thinking of the German text by Arnold Schoenberg for his Jakobsleiter cantata, a text which would seem to be rather unmusical, but he finds the music in the words nevertheless.

Oh, I thought you were thinking strictly of liturgical texts such as the Mass.

You are of course right: music is in the ear of the composer/performer/listener. To stay (relatively) on-topic, Rossini boasted he could set a laundry list to music, and I'm sure it would have been a hit!  ;)
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Cato

Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 06:12:55 AMLess compelling for whom and in what sense? And, is great art mutually exclusive with paying the bills? ;)



Less compelling for the composer, and one would like to think that great art pays the bills, but we have too many examples when it did not.

In one of my novels (based on a true story), a very young musician and beginning composer goes to a music publisher in the hope that his first orchestral work will be accepted.

The music publisher, however, specializes in simple church hymns for hymnals: the boy is sent to talk with a "house composer," who is an older man.

He almost sneers at the term "house composer" when he talks with the boy.  "We are not composers," he says, and says that, although he and his colleague down the hall know all the rules of composition, counterpoint, harmony, style, etc., they are not "composers" but "Tunesmiths."

That is, they have a different personality and different set of talents from a composer.  But they are satisfied with the situation.

 
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Florestan

#29
Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2024, 06:46:30 AMLess compelling for the composer,

Well, I'm sure that each and every opera Rossini composed was an exhausting business, what with having to please / accommodate / appease lead singers and to consider that different audiences have widely different tastes, let alone having to deal with censorship. The fact that he more often than not successfully negotiated his way through all those spiderwebs is a mark of his genius --- one out of many.


Quoteone would like to think that great art pays the bills, but we have too many examples when it did not.

I don't claim that great art always pays the bills, but simply that bills can be paid by great art --- especially when the artist is also a shrewd businessman, such as Haydn and Rossini, or Dickens and Balzac.

QuoteIn one of my novels (based on a true story), a very young musician and beginning composer goes to a music publisher in the hope that his first orchestral work will be accepted.

The music publisher, however, specializes in simple church hymns for hymnals
: the boy is sent to talk with a "house composer," who is an older man.

He almost sneers at the term "house composer" when he talks with the boy.  "We are not composers," he says, and says that, although he and his colleague down the hall know all the rules of composition, counterpoint, harmony, style, etc., they are not "composers" but "Tunesmiths."

That is, they have a different personality and different set of talents from a composer.  But they are satisfied with the situation.

So, a young, aspiring composer goes to a publisher specialized in church hymnals in the hope of getting his orchestral work accepted. Risum teneatis, amici?  ;)

EDIT: This is not a jab at your novel, God forbid! It's a comment on the real situation you alluded to.

And btw, in my book there's nothing wrong with being a tunesmith, on the contrary. As my hero Mozart put it, Melody is the essence of music.

"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Mandryka

#30
Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2024, 05:05:29 AMHello, again Mandryka!

Your last comment above reminds me of what happened with my Latin II students (8th Graders, i.e. 12-14 years old), when we had translated the main texts of the Latin Mass and I played - not without some trepidation - the Credo from Beethoven's Missa Solemnis during one class.

The reaction was, in general, wide-eyed astonishment: keep in mind that most had probably never heard a complete Beethoven work, outside of excerpts played by our Music teacher, who saw them only once a week!

"Wow!  What if they played that at one of our Masses here?" said one boy.
To which another boy said (without thinking): "Yeah, why don't they?"

I smiled and gently explained the obvious!

"The Credo with the Fugue"  I have read that some in Vienna were claiming that Beethoven could not write a fugue, or at least one that would please the critics.

But when did Beethoven or any great musician ever try to please the critics first?

Artists must please that god or goddess of Perfection in their heads, the ineffable Idea which must be brought into reality through words or sounds or images or combinations thereof. 

And so, I think Beethoven, using the sacred texts in his own idiosyncratic way, presented us with an aural picture of whatever Ideas came from his relationship to those prayers.

But this would be true - I think - of any composer of talent reading a text of any kind.  There may be an innate musicality in the words themselves, which is only the starting point, however.  Here I think of Karl Henning's musical elucidation of the texts, which I have written for him to set to music.

After the composer senses that starting point, other Ideas take over, perhaps combining to form a central, main IDEA for the work, depending on what the text is and how the composer reacts to them.

The fugues at the end if the Gloria is really over the top, it's like all the voices are trying to outdo each other for ecstatic joy. In British English we talk about "happy clappy Christians."
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: Florestan on August 22, 2024, 01:41:59 PMMusic does not have to be understood. It has to be listened to. --- Hermann Scherchen

I haven't understood a bar of music in my life, but I've felt it. --- Igor Stravinsky

Von Herzen – möge es wieder – zu Herzen gehn! --- Beethoven

that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.
--- John Keats





I think that it was the Gloria which made me write "understand" back in 2010. I remember feeling that the sudden shifts and extreme rapture of the music was rich, and very strange, disturbingly strange. I was kind of curious about what sort of state of mind, vision, could have led Beethoven to write such unusual music.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2024, 07:28:59 AMI think that it was the Gloria which made me write "understand" back in 2010. I remember feeling that the sudden shifts and extreme rapture of the music was rich, and very strange, disturbingly strange. I was kind of curious about what sort of state of mind, vision, could have led Beethoven to write such unusual music.


What and why does it matter, after all? It's all beyond anybody's comprehension. I say, just enjoy the music and make of it whatever your state of mind or vision makes of it.
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Mandryka

Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 07:42:18 AMWhat and why does it matter, after all? It's all beyond anybody's comprehension. I say, just enjoy the music and make of it whatever your state of mind or vision makes of it.

If I'm faced with otherness, altérité, I find it enriching personally to try and make sense of it. There's a thing in Le Petit Prince about "apprivoiser la rose" - I'm trying to apprivoiser (untranslatable word I think) the Missa Solemnis.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2024, 07:54:16 AMIf I'm faced with otherness, altérité, I find it enriching personally to try and make sense of it.

Fair enough.

It's just that in the presence of a towering musical masterpiece, my reaction is the opposite: I just enjoy it without any (over-) analysis. It is what it is. I like it or not. If the former, all the better for me. If the latter, no problem for me. Non omnia possumus omnes.

QuoteThere's a thing in Le Petit Prince about "apprivoiser la rose" - I'm trying to apprivoiser (untranslatable word I think) the Missa Solemnis.

To tame?

FWIW, Le petit prince is one of my favorite literary works. I have it in a beautiful French edition with Saint-Exupéry's own drawings.

And Saint-Exupéry is one of my favorite French writers.




"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

pjme

https://www.ucpress.edu/blog-posts/51940-an-interview-with-jan-caeyers-author-of-beethoven-a-life

Fragment:
"At the same time, Beethoven's music is timeless. It is based on universal and unchanging laws of beauty, which means that even when its high degree of unpredictability sends it to emotional extremes, the listener needs not fear a loss of overall cohesion.
What musical piece best represents the dynamism, complexity, and enormity of the composer's persona?
I believe that Beethoven's greatest achievement is the Missa solemnis, which he worked on for nearly four years (with a few interruptions). This period was preceded by nearly ten years of preparatory study, which allowed Beethoven—who had barely even attended school—to draw from a well-filled autodidactic wellspring of musical, literary, iconographic, theological, and liturgical knowledge. Thanks to his sixth sense for musical proportion and structure, which he continued to refine and develop throughout his life, he was able to incorporate this broad spectrum of expertise into a single homogenous work without permitting rhetorical detail to produce compositional tunnel vision. The Missa solemnis can also be regarded as Beethoven's ideological and spiritual testament: a message to humankind that transcends the realm of music and is as current today as ever."

Cato

Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 07:04:38 AMSo, a young, aspiring composer goes to a publisher specialized in church hymnals in the hope of getting his orchestral work accepted. Risum teneatis, amici?  ;)

EDIT: This is not a jab at your novel, God forbid! It's a comment on the real situation you alluded to.

And btw, in my book there's nothing wrong with being a tunesmith, on the contrary. As my hero Mozart put it, Melody is the essence of music.



To be clear, the company was entitled simply "Music Publishing."

That it specialized only in producing hymnals for mass consumption was not obvious, until the visit happened.

Very disappointing!   ;)   Another of the universe's jokes on human hopes and aspirations!  😇

But the book is a comic epic of sorts!  :laugh: 
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Florestan

Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2024, 08:14:04 AMTo be clear, the company was entitled simply "Music Publishing."

That it specialized only in producing hymnals for mass consumption was not obvious, until the visit happened.

Makes sense now! I apologize if I might have come across like a dimwit... (self-irony you should appreciate --- which would make me come across as a smartass --- are we going in circles?  :D )

QuoteVery disappointing!  ;)  Another of the universe's jokes on human hopes and aspirations!  😇

Indeed.

QuoteBut the book is a comic epic of sorts!  :laugh: 

I have no doubts about it. Too bad I'll never read it. :laugh:
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Cato

Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 08:22:09 AMMakes sense now! I apologize if I might have come across like a dimwit... (self-irony you should appreciate --- which would make me come across as a smartass --- are we going in circles?  :D )


No, no!  By no means!  "Smith Music Publishing Co." leads one to believe it is open to music of all kinds!

The book is available for free from me via a download: it involves 9 characters in childhood and their lives after World War II in a typical American city.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Mandryka

#39
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 08:04:42 AMFair enough.

It's just that in the presence of a towering musical masterpiece, my reaction is the opposite: I just enjoy it without any (over-) analysis. It is what it is. I like it or not. If the former, all the better for me. If the latter, no problem for me. Non omnia possumus omnes.

To tame?

FWIW, Le petit prince is one of my favorite literary works. I have it in a beautiful French edition with Saint-Exupéry's own drawings.

And Saint-Exupéry is one of my favorite French writers.






I'll leave it to the real French speakers to explain the differences between apprivoiser, dompter and tame.  When you say "tame something" in English, you kind of think of lions in circuses, this sort of thing



Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen