Please help me to understand The Missa Solemnis.

Started by Mandryka, June 28, 2013, 12:13:42 PM

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Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2024, 09:02:27 AMI'll leave it to the real French speakers to explain the differences between apprivoiser, dompter and tame.  When you say "tame something" in English, you kind of think of lions in circuses, this sort of thing





The Romanian translation is a îmblânzi, meaning to make a person or an animal blând, ie good, gentle, inoffensive, harmless --- both verb and adjective originating from the Latin blandus.
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Mandryka

Do you think that to apprivoiser la rose, you cut the thorn off and tie it to a frame -- i.e. control it, force it into a less irritating state?

In English we have the word bland, often (maybe always) pejorative. Insipid.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2024, 09:37:37 AMDo you think that to apprivoiser la rose, you cut the thorn off and tie it to a frame -- i.e. control it, force it into a less irritating state?

This might be the literal translation --- however, I think Saint-Exupery's meaning was way more subtler than that.

QuoteIn English we have the word bland, often (maybe always) pejorative. Insipid.

Yes, I know. I find it fascinating how the same Latin word can yield so many different meanings and nuances in the various Romance or even non-Romance languages which have its derivative(s).

In this respect, I urge you to seek the meaning of, the Latin root of, and the explanation for the obvious difference of, Romanian a pleca and Spanish llegar. You are in for a standard lesson in cultural linguistics.
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Mandryka

Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 09:51:38 AMThis might be the literal translation --- however, I think Saint-Exupery's meaning was way more subtler than that.

Yes, I know. I find it fascinating how the same Latin word can yield so many different meanings and nuances in the various Romance or even non-Romance languages which have its derivative(s).

In this respect, I urge you to seek the meaning of, the Latin root of, and the explanation for the obvious difference of, Romanian a pleca and Spanish llegar. You are in for a standard lesson in cultural linguistics.




When I was at primary school, the head teacher used to have a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary behind his desk. The whole thing. It was impressive,  in many handsome volumes. He used to talk to us about words, and often he would take out the dictionary, look something up, and discuss the etymology. I loved it.

The OED is an incredible thing -- there's nothing quite like it in French as far as I know -- I don't know about Romanian.

This book is a really fun read -- it's got your name all over it

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Caught-Web-Words-English-Dictionary/dp/0300089198
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Jo498

I have heard the Missa solemnis twice in live performances and it is an overwhelming piece. I rarely listen to it, despite having a dozen recordings or so because it's too intense and draining but still won't have the impact of a provincial live performance.

There is too much going one, especially in the big/loud movements like the Gloria, I can barely follow the main things. (Technically there might be more going on in some parts of the Bach b minor and that's also a great piece I have heard several times in concert but Bach is more sane and orderly, so I feel I can better follow along)

The Gloria fugue starts in a fairly standard way but gets ever more ecstatic. The coda basically gives up the fugue but we get a speeded up return of the very simple scale upwards Gloria theme from the beginning. And there is the stroke of genius that the very end has the orchestra stopping a beat or two before the choir, so the last shout of "Gloria" gets that archaic a cappella feeling echoing through the spheres.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

steve ridgway

Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 07:04:38 AMSo, a young, aspiring composer goes to a publisher specialized in church hymnals in the hope of getting his orchestral work accepted. Risum teneatis, amici?  ;)

This reminds me of the German group Kluster who in 1969/70 recorded a pair of albums of deafening improvisational noise -

Late that year Schnitzler read a newspaper advertisement by a church organist interested in new music. The result was church sponsorship for the first two albums, Klopfzeichen and Zwei-Osterei, provided Kluster was willing to add religious text to the first side of each LP. Both records were released by Schwann, a label known for church music, and a total of 300 copies of each were pressed and sold. Schnitzler's comments about the text: "If you don't understand the German words, it sounds better. [...] If you know what it means, you'll find it terrible." Klopfzeichen were recorded at Rhenus-Studio in Gordorf, Germany in one session on December 21, 1969 and Zwei-Osterei was recorded at the same location on February 23, 1970. Both sessions were engineered by Conny Plank and produced by Oskar Gottlieb Blarr. The music of the first two albums is described by Steven and Alan Freeman, in part: "Although they never possessed any electronic instruments, the music of Kluster was quite extraordinary, featuring guitars, percussion, organ, cello, etc., with an abundance of sound processing devices, echo, tape machines and filters, to create a music that oozed electricity—stark, bleak, industrial, and nightmarishly unnerving." - Wikipedia

You couldn't make it up ;) .

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2024, 10:03:14 AMThe OED is an incredible thing -- there's nothing quite like it in French as far as I know -- I don't know about Romanian.

Is it an etymological, linguistic and historical dictionary containing each and every word of the English language?



"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Luke

Great story!  :D

Quote from: steve ridgwayThe music of the first two albums is described by Steven and Alan Freeman...


I used to know those guys (in a very distant way). That's an unexpected blast from the past.

Mandryka

Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 10:29:14 AMIs it an etymological, linguistic and historical dictionary containing each and every word of the English language?





Correct. That is what it is.  They produce supplements every few years. The etymology in the complete edition is really thorough and detailed, with citations of usage through time etc.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2024, 10:45:23 AMCorrect. That is what it is.  They produce supplements every few years. The etymology in the complete edition is really thorough and detailed, with citations of usage through time etc.

Well, Bogdan Petriceicu Hasdeu authored the exact Romanian equivalent of that, but he didn't make it past a few words beginning with B.
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

ritter

Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2024, 09:02:27 AMI'll leave it to the real French speakers to explain the differences between apprivoiser, dompter and tame.  When you say "tame something" in English, you kind of think of lions in circuses, this sort of thing




Not a native French speaker, but (with some nuances) I'd say the closest translation of "apprivoiser" would be "to domesticate"...
"Lorsqu'une œuvre semble en avance sur son époque, c'est simplement que son époque est en retard sur elle" Jean Cocteau

Florestan

Quote from: ritter on September 01, 2024, 12:30:58 PMNot a native French speaker, but (with some nuances) I'd say the closest translation of "apprivoiser" would be "to domesticate"...

Yes. In Romanian, a domestici refers specifically and only to animals.
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

ritter

Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 12:34:04 PMYes. In Romanian, a domestici refers specifically and only to animals.
Doesn't Romanian permit figurative speech?  :o  ::)  :D
"Lorsqu'une œuvre semble en avance sur son époque, c'est simplement que son époque est en retard sur elle" Jean Cocteau

Florestan

Quote from: ritter on September 01, 2024, 01:04:58 PMDoesn't Romanian permit figurative speech?  :o  ::)  :D

It surely does —- I just don't want to take advantage of it.....
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Mandryka

#54
Quote from: ritter on September 01, 2024, 12:30:58 PMNot a native French speaker, but (with some nuances) I'd say the closest translation of "apprivoiser" would be "to domesticate"...

What does the fox say?

Apprivoiser veut dire créer des liens. Si tu m'apprivoises, nous aurons besoin l'un de l'autre. Tu seras pour moi unique au monde. Je serai pour toi unique au monde...



https://umanz.fr/essentiels/27/04/2018/petit-prince-renard-quest-signifie-apprivoiser


Voilà - j'apprivoise la Missa Solemnis!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2024, 01:36:28 PMApprivoiser veut dire créer des liens. Si tu m'apprivoises, nous aurons besoin l'un de l'autre. Tu seras pour moi unique au monde. Je serai pour toi unique au monde...



https://umanz.fr/essentiels/27/04/2018/petit-prince-renard-quest-signifie-apprivoiser


Voilà - j'apprivoise la Missa Solemnis!


Moi, j'aurais une pression, svp!  ;D  ;D
"Great music is that which penetrates the ear with facility and leaves the memory with difficulty. Magical music never leaves the memory." — Thomas Beecham

Jo498

OT and I don't know enough French but the practical difference between domesticate and tame is that domestication yields a new subspecies, the domesticate variant whose offspring will be of that species whereas taming only tames one individual animal and does not create a new species and any offspring will have to be tamed again. (FWI in the German translation of Saint-Exupery "zähmen" (obv. cognate of tame + German sound shift) is used.)
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Wanderer

#57
As a transitive veb, apprivoiser means domesticating (usually an animal), but also making someone more "docile et sociable" (of which "tame" is but one possible translation) - synonyms are adoucir, amadouer.
As a verbe pronominal, s'apprivoiser, apart from its actual meaning (for animals: becoming less fierce, more sociable and friendly), its literary/figurative use signifies becoming familiar with something.  (e.g. Je commence à m'apprivoiser à cette idée.)

Consider the following excerpt:

– Non, dit le petit prince. Je cherche des amis. Qu'est-ce que signifie « apprivoiser » ?
– C'est une chose trop oubliée, dit le renard. Ça signifie « Créer des liens... » (=making links, connections).

– Créer des liens ?

– Bien sûr, dit le renard. Tu n'es encore pour moi qu'un petit garçon tout semblable à cent mille petits garçons. Et je n'ai pas besoin de toi. Et tu n'as pas besoin de moi non plus. Je ne suis pour toi qu'un renard semblable à cent mille renards. Mais, si tu m'apprivoises, nous aurons besoin l'un de l'autre. Tu seras pour moi unique au monde. Je serai pour toi unique au monde...





Wanderer

#58
Quote from: Mandryka on September 01, 2024, 01:36:28 PMVoilà - j'apprivoise la Missa Solemnis!


Ou bien, la Missa Solemnis, elle t'apprivoise! Et tu t'apprivoises à la Missa Solemnis!

Mandryka

#59
Quote from: Wanderer on September 02, 2024, 12:03:07 AMOu bien, la Missa Solemnis, elle t'apprivoise! Et tu t'apprivoises à la Missa Solemnis!

I've never come across the pronomial form before, it's more in line with what I thought the irreflexive form meant in fact. Maybe I can say, Je m'apprivoise = je m'accommode


For me, domesticate has connotations of reducing in strength and force. You may talk of domesticating a wild rose to make an easier plant for gardeners to find a place for in their gardens - less inclined to take over, less thorny, more reliable flowers.  A dog is a domesticated wolf . . .
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen