Francis Poulenc

[Mirror Image]

Roge notwithstanding, I find Dutoit's recordings rather colorless compared with some of the older ones which were made when French Orchestras has their own unique sound, such as the Desormiere I referred to above, Prêtre, etc.

I understand that you're not a fan of Dutoit and you continue with the same responses of his conducting like "colorless." Your opinion of Dutoit is duly noted. I happen to enjoy his conducting and have enjoyed many of his recordings, especially of the French repertoire.

[Benny]

Very good songs, especially in his musical rendition of Apollinaire's poetry, but also Eluard's.
One of the best composers of sacred choral works in his century.
One of the best operas of that century -- his Dialogues des Carmelites
I much prefer his more serious music to the light, frolicking stuff.

[Scarpia]

I understand that you're not a fan of Dutoit and you continue with the same responses of his conducting like "colorless." Your opinion of Dutoit is duly noted. I happen to enjoy his conducting and have enjoyed many of his recordings, especially of the French repertoire.

I fail to see why you find yourself offended if someone expresses an opinion you don't agree with.

[Mirror Image]

I fail to see why you find yourself offended if someone expresses an opinion you don't agree with.

I'm not offended. I'm just stating that your opinion, which you have mentioned on several other threads about Dutoit, has been duly noted by myself. We all understand you're not a fan of Dutoit.

[Scarpia]

I'm not offended. I'm just stating that your opinion, which you have mentioned on several other threads about Dutoit, has been duly noted by myself. We all understand you're not a fan of Dutoit.

My objection to Dutoit is ultimately that he was a construct of Decca Records.  Ansermet died, Decca management decided they needed a "new Ansermet" and they decided on Dutoit.  They had him re-record virtually the entire Ansermet catalog because they were trying to build a brand, despite the fact that he was hardly the most outstanding example of the French school of music-making.   I assume they were attracted to him because he was like the young Solti in the 1950's, without an independent reputation and therefore completely at their beck and call.  How much more lively Decca's catalog of French music would have been if they had Prêtre or Martinon instead (well, I guess Martinon didn't live long enough to replace Ansermet in the Decca catalog.

[Benny]

A strange way of saying that Montrealers had no taste between 1977 and 2002. He certainly did put that orchestra on the map! And most of his repertoire consisted of French and Swiss composers.

[Scarpia]

A strange way of saying that Montrealers had no taste between 1977 and 2002. He certainly did put that orchestra on the map! And most of his repertoire consisted of French and Swiss composers.

I'm not sure why you think I have said anything that reflects poorly on patrons of the Montreal symphony.  Montreal has always had a perfectly good orchestra, and I am sure their patrons were happy that their orchestra benefited from a Decca recording contract.   I'm just saying that Decca wanted to build a "brand" by anointing a "new Ansermet."  They picked Dutoit and had him systematically re-record every record Ansermet ever made during his 20 years as Decca's signature "French" conductor.  That's why we've heard of Charles Dutoit.  There are a lot of very good orchestras in North America.  If Decca had decided to engage, say, the Louisville Orchestra to record 20 LP records per year for 15 years, then Jorge Mester would be as well known as Charles Dutoit is now.  Probably better, because I think Mester is a better conductor.

[Benny]

If the Dutoit recordings are colorless, how does that reflect on Montreal's taste in classical music for a quarter of a century? I mean, can there be such a world of difference between a Dutoit live performance and a Dutoit recording as to make one wonderful and the other colorless?

[Scarpia]

If the Dutoit recordings are colorless, how does that reflect on Montreal's taste in classical music for a quarter of a century? I mean, can there be such a world of difference between a Dutoit live performance and a Dutoit recording as to make one wonderful and the other colorless?

You seem to take great pleasure in attributing things to me that I neither said not intended.  I find Dutoit's recordings technically proficient, but uninteresting.  I've never heard him perform live, so I have no idea whether I would find his live performances more engaging than his recordings.  I don't have any reason to think I would, but I can't rule it out, obviously.

[Mirror Image]

My objection to Dutoit is ultimately that he was a construct of Decca Records.  Ansermet died, Decca management decided they needed a "new Ansermet" and they decided on Dutoit.  They had him re-record virtually the entire Ansermet catalog because they were trying to build a brand, despite the fact that he was hardly the most outstanding example of the French school of music-making.   I assume they were attracted to him because he was like the young Solti in the 1950's, without an independent reputation and therefore completely at their beck and call.  How much more lively Decca's catalog of French music would have been if they had Prêtre or Martinon instead (well, I guess Martinon didn't live long enough to replace Ansermet in the Decca catalog.

And this still doesn't change my opinion that I think Dutoit is a great conductor whether he was billed as the next "Ansermet" or not, I don't give a damn. I like him.

[Benny]

And I simply find your overall assessment of Dutoit's recording too sweeping ... not specifically evaluative.

[Scarpia]

And I simply find your overall assessment of Dutoit's recording too sweeping ... not specifically evaluative.

You want evaluative.  Listen to Dutoit's recording of Supee overtures.  Then compare it with Solti's recording, not necessarily his recording with the VPO, but the earlier mono recording with the London Philharmonic.   Dutoit has no rhythmic drive, no vehemence of attack, no feeling of urgency.  Everything prim and proper and without heat or sentimentality.

Another Dutoit recording that left me utterly unsatisfied was the set of Haydn's Paris symphonies.  This was with the Montreal Sinfonietta.  Again, everything in it's place, played with great gentility, no drive, no rhythmic incisiveness, no urgency, no sense of humor.    How can I listen to this when I have Dorati or Harnoncourt on the shelf?

Another recording I had was his recording of Respighi, La Boutique fantasque.  Again, you just feel your life dripping away as these as these recordings play.  I want to jump up and put something on that has some passion!

And, my god, those recordings where he accompanies Argerich.  The man must be a genius if he can make a Martha Argerich recording boring!

But, there are a few good ones.  His "Pines of Rome" is top notch.  I suspect he called in sick that day and the recording engineer conducted it.   

Now, I assume there are people that admire the elegance and poise of these recordings.  Not me.

[Franco]

And I simply find your overall assessment of Dutoit's recording too sweeping ... not specifically evaluative.

I'd suggest to just let it go; it is just one person's opinion after all.

Concerning Dutoit, I enjoy his recording of Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande, his collaboration with Pascal Roge on the Saint-Saens piano concertos, as well as his Daphnis et Chloé.  I think he is a sensitive conductor with the French repertory I've heard, but I don't have him doing any Poulenc.

[Benny]

Nevertheless interesting that none of these specific examples explicitly pertain to a French composer. Only implicitly, in the case of Dutoit's wife, M. Argerich, can one suppose that it refers to Ravel's concertos.

In other words, still too sweeping.....

[just Jeff]

I own almost every major Poulenc orchestral/choral recording available.

Haven't heard any of Pretre's recordings of Poulenc.

Well, then you'll have to let us know what you think of Pretre's recordings when you can.  They are exceptionally high rated.  The earliest ones are 1968, so sound quality is just fine.  I have the original French EMI LPs.

[Scarpia]

Multiple personality disorder?

[Mirror Image]

Well, then you'll have to let us know what you think of Pretre's recordings when you can.  They are exceptionally high rated.  The earliest ones are 1968, so sound quality is just fine.  I have the original French EMI LPs.

I don't own the Pretre recordings, but then again I never intended on buying them. I'm happy with the Dutoit set. Poulenc is a composer I seldom listen to, but when I do I know I can count on the Dutoit set to provide me with consistent, high quality performances in excellent audio.

[Benny]

I believe I have earlier Pretre recordings of Poulenc's music than 1968.
I am reading from an Angel 35953 record of his Gloria in G Major, "world premiere recording under the supervision of the composer," that the recording was made on February 15, 1961. The flip side of the LP is Poulenc's Concerto in G Minor for organ, strings, and timpani, with Maurice Durufle at the organ. French National Radio-Television Orchestra conducted by George Pretre.

A preceding Angel record, numbered 35932, includes Poulenc's Les Biches, Dutilleux's Le Loup, and Milhaud's La Creation du Monde, Orchestre de la Societe des Concerts du Conservatoire conducted by Pretre. No date but obviously in or before 1961.

Another recording of Poulenc's "The Model Animals," with Aldo Ciccolini and Alexis Weissenberg pianists, and Pretre conducting the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra, has a Library of Congress Catalog Nunber of R 67-2771 on Angel EMI. Also cataloged as R 67-2988 iand awarded "the coveted 1966 Grand Prix by France's Academie Charles Cros, is Poulenc's Aubade for piano and eighteen instruments and his concerto for piano and orchestra, with Gabriel Tacchino, piano, Thge Paris Conservatoire Orchestra conducted by Pretre. Angel EMI

Once again, it is virtually impossible to type anything more once I reach the bottom of this stupid box.

[Benny]

I own what I think is a fairly rare RCA Victor album of Poulenc's La Voix Humaine, Opera in One Act, featuring soprano Denise Duval (and that's it, only her!), recorded in France by Ricordi, Orchestra Theatre National de l'Opera Comique, conducted by Pretre. The date of the first performance was 6 February 1959, so the recording is probably from 1959. RCA Victor LS/LSS 2385. This work is a tour de force.

[listener]

I own what I think is a fairly rare RCA Victor album of Poulenc's La Voix Humaine, Opera in One Act, featuring soprano Denise Duval (and that's it, only her!), recorded in France by Ricordi, Orchestra Theatre National de l'Opera Comique, conducted by Pretre. The date of the first performance was 6 February 1959, so the recording is probably from 1959. RCA Victor LS/LSS 2385. This work is a tour de force.

Issued by EMI on CD as 769 696 - mono     Prêtre conducting, no text with the disc.  1959 recording.
Coupled with Cocteau's monodrame Le Bel Indifférent   (no music)